Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
08.27.2013 , 03:20 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
One of the more intelligent (I think) discussions have revolved around tying Healing and DPS abilities to specific Stances for the AC which would allow individual role balancing while addressing these concerns.
although i LOVE having access to kolto bomb on my commando as dps, if this is what it would take, i would be all for it.
oaceen assault specialist / oac scrapper / oacao kinetic combatant / oacianado tactician
[Guide] The Dirty Rotten Scoundrel's PvE DPS Compendium

oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
08.27.2013 , 03:21 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by dakisback View Post
This isn't WoW
this game, however, has promised since the beginning that there would be no hybrid tax like there used to be in wow at one time
oaceen assault specialist / oac scrapper / oacao kinetic combatant / oacianado tactician
[Guide] The Dirty Rotten Scoundrel's PvE DPS Compendium

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
08.27.2013 , 03:26 PM | #23
The best situation IMO.

All classes have a strength and a weakness. All classes have a bane and a boon class...one class they are naturally weak against, one they are always strong against.

The current situation IMO.

An attempt was made to create situations where hybrids had a lower performance due to the ability to cover two roles, but then mitigation and/or survivability was not balanced as it probably should have been.

So there are classes that have clearly inferior output without truly covering all bases and become less desirable in PVP.

However, in PVE IMO the weaknesses are not as apparent, and we have already walked down the road of changes to the classes overall for the sole sake of PVP with toxic results.

So, IMO, the problem is the way the classes are designed currently. And the mind set that all things need to be equal as well.

I actually believe that there should be two rule sets when it comes to PVE and PVP....and they should both play differently. A set of buffs, debuffs, additional skills and skill disable should come into play when one engages in PVP....this should be an overall set of variables that can be adjusted apart from PVE and allow changes that can benefit imbalances.

Either that or I think the classes need to be redesigned so that they can fill all three roles, the ACs clearly represent all three roles, and the output ends up being the same OR the boon and bane class method is used.


So here is what I think needs to be done, one of the following three....

1) Adjust all classes to have a boon and bane class
2) Create a buff/debuff system with ability additions and subtractions that can be adjusted for the sake of PVP only
3) Redesign the ACs so that all ACs can fill all three roles, with approximately equal output.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
08.27.2013 , 03:26 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by chuixupu View Post
I don't agree with the idea of the hybrid tax, if that's what's going on here.
It gets called a hybrid tax in the forum.. but I see it as the result of a balance budget (for lack of a better term). A class has X balance points (to measure against other classes). If measured against a pure DPS class... then unless the Sage/Sorc were pure DPS.. some % of it's balance points would be allocated to healing. I don't see why that is unreasonable, nor a tax per se.

I remain convinced the only way out of this circular rage (other then reasonable player realizations) is if they redid the spec trees such that each tree shifts the class to either DPS, Healing, or HYBRID. DPS spec gets no heals, Heals Spec gets no DPS (other then base), and Hybrid gets a balance. But while this works at level cap.. it falls apart at low levels since you lack the spec points to make it work. So maybe it only happens at the top end of the tree.. when you are above level 45. /shrug. Doing it with /stances would be too easy to exploit in PvP I think.

So... what.. right now.. Sorc/Sage DPS we are down 10-15% vs pure DPS + can heal? I really don't see that as unreasonable.
Forum disputatio ------> est completum ineptias.

Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
08.27.2013 , 03:29 PM | #25
Meh, the bigger problem isn't dps, it's the lack of utility. Giving the best dps and utility to the same class is a bit of a problem.

As for pvp...meh? I usually run hybrid. Been trying out lightning, while not a great PvE spec, might be better than hybrid for PvP...undecided as of yet.
The Empire is not evil, and the Republic is not good...it is all a matter of opinion.
Nerf Hungering! It's too OP.=Bartle Test Results:= CE VIP
{Reward-Driven 85%} {Exploratory -60%} {Physical 32%} {Thoughtful -26%} {Social -60%} {Competitive 100%}

iamthehoyden's Avatar


iamthehoyden
08.27.2013 , 03:38 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
So... what.. right now.. Sorc/Sage DPS we are down 10-15% vs pure DPS + can heal? I really don't see that as unreasonable.
It's not unreasonable in theory. Where it falls apart is when you're picking an ops team. For most ops teams, the healers are going to be handling all the healing. Why would you bring a dps class that's not going to be as effective as another class (assuming players of equal skill) when their added benefit (off heals) is not needed? That doesn't make sense. And that's why it's an issue. It's not that it's a terrible set up, in theory, but in practice it just doesn't function like that.
aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?
---------------
Fan Fiction: My Name is Solomon Crae The Man in the Box

Grayseven's Avatar


Grayseven
08.27.2013 , 03:41 PM | #27
I'm of the mind that DPS specs should not be able to heal anywhere close to effectively, while Healing specs of the same class should not be able to DPS efficiently.

If Sage/Sorc DPS damage isn't close to other DPS classes damage, then it needs buffed to make it competitive.

Hybrid specs, because they are hybrid, should not be anywhere close to as good as a pure of either spec. Hybrid should bring mediocrity...okay at both but not to the point of over-powering a full spec.

At no point should a DPS spec's survivability depend on its healing abilities simply because they have them, as we all know how slow and bad the larger heals are in Sorc/Sage are.
Sometimes you narfle the Garthok, sometimes the Garthok narfles you.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
08.27.2013 , 03:57 PM | #28
Which was one of the more farcical aspects of the response; have you ever tried to fill in for a downed healer as a 3/36/7 Sorc?

Good Luck with that, the base-line heals for the Sorc class barely find utility when fully specced into Corruption for the buffs.

I mean, do people actually use Dark Heal in End-Game Healing, at all?

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
08.27.2013 , 04:23 PM | #29
...which is why I think they should have set up the trees in each AC as Tank, Heal, DPS with approximately the same performance, but a few unique turns per class.

One class would be the best AoE healer, one the best AoE damage. Same with single target. One tank would be better at mitigation, another at agro control. One would be best at AoE CC, the other at single target CC...etc.

That way each class would bring unique perks inside the classic roles for each tree.

IMO a light armor DPS heal hybrid, if it was left that way, should be viable with a medium armor DPS as far as DPS output and mitigate using self heals with a proper regeneration mechanic....I suggested AoE damage abilities that heal the caster for a small amount as they do damage....as well as a single target health leech.

This would be one way to give survivability to the class.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
08.27.2013 , 04:33 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by iamthehoyden View Post
It's not unreasonable in theory. Where it falls apart is when you're picking an ops team. For most ops teams, the healers are going to be handling all the healing. Why would you bring a dps class that's not going to be as effective as another class (assuming players of equal skill) when their added benefit (off heals) is not needed? That doesn't make sense. And that's why it's an issue. It's not that it's a terrible set up, in theory, but in practice it just doesn't function like that.
Well, the only place it can really be considered in any way sub-optimal would be in OPs raids. But even then... a well played and geared Sorc/Sage can still pull their weight vs pure DPS and have some additional emergency utility. So in the end.. this smells like leet min/max mindset in an OPs environment.

Sure in a min/max raid formation.. it fails.. because that's 10% less DPS....but this game really does not work on extreme raid (OPs) like some other MMOs insist on doing.
Forum disputatio ------> est completum ineptias.