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Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
08.30.2013 , 05:10 PM | #191
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
This isn't really worth responding to but... If you don't think sorc dps heals are very useful (including bubbles) then you are probably a verily bad sorc. if you sit by the huttball channelling heals while the nearby opponents aren't mezzed. or rooted or stunned you're definitely bad. Other than scamperers and sins, sorcs have the most maneuverability in most situations. Out of 8 advanced classes, I think 5 have kbs? And mercs and juggs have fewer to much fewer. Two of the classes that don't have them at all are not parsing higher than sorcs.
/facepalm... You are correct about only one thing in that mess, and that is that it really wasn't worth responding because, as you proved, nothing you can say can possible disprove my point. My comment about sitting and healing to full was a joke! Sorcs are a turret spec aka they have NO mobility as they cannot deal dmg on the move period, with the exception of death field (but madness sucks so bad no one specs for it) and instant chain lighting which can only proc from casting while standing STILL. Shock does such a negligible amount of dmg it's not worth mentioning! Mercs have the exact same knockback as sorcerers and juggs have a single target knockback that throws the target much much further and can potentially one shot an enemy if used correctly!

As for your last sentence... ARE YOU F-ING SERIOUS?!!! The two classes that don't have knockbacks are marauders and operative both of which parse HUNDREDS more than sorcs!
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
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Ratajack's Avatar


Ratajack
08.30.2013 , 05:16 PM | #192
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkIntelligence View Post
Yes and yes because they are both irrelevant to endgame content, as I and many others have said countless times already. This is not a single player game it is an MMO please learn the difference! I say this because such a comment as you made above can only come from a single player mindset.
I'm not the one asking for a healing class to do top notch damage.

I KNOW the difference between MMO and single player. I know that if I'm going to play a healing class, even spec'd as DPS, that my DPS is not going to top the charts. I know that there are other players who have different strengths than I have, and I might have strengths that they do not have. I know there are other classes which are better at some things than the class I chose, while my chosen class may be better at other things. I am not looking for a class that does it all. I'm not saying that you are, but there are some in the is very thread who want it all. They want to top the DPS parses AND still be able to not only heal, but heal effectively.

mmjarec's Avatar


mmjarec
08.30.2013 , 07:54 PM | #193
Majority lf sorcs dont know how to play their class if they did you wouldnt sit there and cast till you were face tanking you would dot and aoe for proc and use instannts and always stay in the back. If the llaystile doesnt dit play another class. I dont expect to face tank with my mara

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
08.30.2013 , 11:55 PM | #194
Quote: Originally Posted by mmjarec View Post
Majority lf sorcs dont know how to play their class if they did you wouldnt sit there and cast till you were face tanking you would dot and aoe for proc and use instannts and always stay in the back. If the llaystile doesnt dit play another class. I dont expect to face tank with my mara
....what?

Can someone translate this for me please?

DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
08.31.2013 , 12:14 AM | #195
Quote: Originally Posted by Ratajack View Post
I'm not the one asking for a healing class to do top notch damage.

I KNOW the difference between MMO and single player. I know that if I'm going to play a healing class, even spec'd as DPS, that my DPS is not going to top the charts. I know that there are other players who have different strengths than I have, and I might have strengths that they do not have. I know there are other classes which are better at some things than the class I chose, while my chosen class may be better at other things. I am not looking for a class that does it all. I'm not saying that you are, but there are some in the is very thread who want it all. They want to top the DPS parses AND still be able to not only heal, but heal effectively.
Well I can't speak to what others want, but I think you are confusing the fact that they want to be able to both deal DPS on par with other classes and have defensive cooldowns/capabilities of par with other classes, which I don't think is unreasonable. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that different classes should have different strengths and weakness, but don't confuse that with the need for essential skills required for maintaining class balance (which some classes are currently missing). Now, no one is saying that those skills have to be the same or even act in a simular manner but in the end of the day in order for class balance to exist they do have to offer the same degree of defensive capabilities. Same goes for offense but in a broader sense.
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
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DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
08.31.2013 , 12:17 AM | #196
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
....what?

Can someone translate this for me please?
Well I guess I can try, I've been trying for nearly 200 posts... Uhhh... Something about face tanking? Umm... Yeah sorry I got nothing. Don't worry you get used to him, it's like an annoying squirrel that keeps stealing the birdfeed from the bird house...
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
___________________________________________ _______________________________________

Helig's Avatar


Helig
08.31.2013 , 12:24 AM | #197
Quote: Originally Posted by -IceHawk- View Post
Absolutely.

The reality is that Dark Heal is an immensely Force Inefficient Heal and that the cast time on Dark Infusion combined with the likelihood of push-back makes it nigh-useless tactically.
This is an important issue, I believe.

Dark Heal drains your Force like noone's business for quick, but ultimately pathetic heals. Just not enough bang for the buck. I'd understand the stupid Force cost, were it instant, but in its present state, I use it either by mistake, or in a quick combo with Unnatural Preservation.

Infusion healing is quite underwhelming for a 3-sec cast, which makes it pretty unusable outside safe, or relatively safe conditions.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

MajikMyst's Avatar


MajikMyst
08.31.2013 , 01:22 AM | #198
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkIntelligence View Post
Well I can't speak to what others want, but I think you are confusing the fact that they want to be able to both deal DPS on par with other classes and have defensive cooldowns/capabilities of par with other classes, which I don't think is unreasonable. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that different classes should have different strengths and weakness, but don't confuse that with the need for essential skills required for maintaining class balance (which some classes are currently missing). Now, no one is saying that those skills have to be the same or even act in a simular manner but in the end of the day in order for class balance to exist they do have to offer the same degree of defensive capabilities. Same goes for offense but in a broader sense.
Then what they are asking for is not balanced.. Any class with any healing abilities should not top the charts in DPS.. I would love the sage bubble on my Sentinel.. Heck some of their standard heals would be nice as well.. The comment that the heals are worthless, is actually meaningless.. They are still heals and pure DPS classes do not have them..

Pure DPS classes should top the charts.. Period.. There should be no argument otherwise.. Their entire purpose in any situation is to inflict damage on the enemy.. 100% damage.. Nothing else.. No spot heals, and no spot tanking because a tank is in a mind trap..

A DPS sage is probably 85-90% damage and 10-15% heals..

I play both a sage and a Sentinel.. I also have a gunslinger and a Scoundrel.. I also have a shadow and a commando.. I can talk about this issue from all sides of the spectrum..

Hybrid classes should not be as good at DPS as classes that are specialized at DPS.. Notice I am using the word class and not spec..

I am not sure who it was, but someone was implying that a tank should not do any DPS.. The DPS a tank does generates threat.. It is how we maintain agro on the boss or mob.. We can't rely on our taunts, they only last typically for 6 seconds, and at the very least have about a 20 second cool down.. So DPS is how we maintain threat.. No.. I am not saying that tanks should do a lot of DPS.. Most of our damage abilities generate high amounts of threat to help out.. But we still have to do some DPS.. Our TPS or Threat per second is partially determined by how much DPS we can do.. That said, tanks should still worry more about mitigation instead of damage..

Pure DPS classes should be tops when it comes to DPS.. There should be no debate on that..

Hybrid classes that are spec'd DPS should do good DPS, but not as much as a pure DPS class.. Hybrid class have other tools to make up for their short commings on DPS.. Stealth comes to mind, which really helps placing crowed controls.. Having classes that can throw spot heals in tight situations can really help.. You hope that you never need to, but the situations sometimes do come up when you need them..

AOE?? I can't believe I actually say someone say that AOE was useless.. That it was all about single target DPS.. If I had a nickel for every time I used freighter fly by on a boss.. Or incendiary grenade for that matter.. Both AOE and both do tons of damage.. Not all boss fights with multiple bosses allow you to kill them one at a time... Someone needs to stop doing Flashpoints and then talking about Ops.. Zorn and Toth in EC need to be killed with in seconds of eachother.. Or the other enrages.. The tank fight, again in EC needs to be killed with seconds of each other.. Jarg and Sorno of KP need to be killed with in seconds.. Jarg and Sorno is a great example of a boss fight where AOE could be very usefull.. Still AOE is not useless in a single boss fight either.. They still do damage.. Not to mention, some of the trash pulls in an OP can be pretty challenging..

To answer the OP's question.. It is called balance.. Characters sacrifice some damage production to either tank or heal.. If a healing or tanking class did as much damage as a pure DPS class, then there is no reason to ever roll a pure DPS class.. People need to look at it from that perspective.. The ability to tank and heal costs you some DPS.. It doesn't matter how useless you feel the tanking or healing skills are.. The fact that you have them is why your DPS is a tad lower than that of a pure DPS class..

There really is nothing to say here.. It is called character balance.. A class that can do it all as good as everyone else is not balanced..
Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows him?

[.] Lost but never forgotten!! 12-01-2011 R.I.P.

mmjarec's Avatar


mmjarec
08.31.2013 , 02:47 AM | #199
If you want to heal then spec for it i dont expect my dps sin to be able to tank why are you special

MajikMyst's Avatar


MajikMyst
08.31.2013 , 03:12 AM | #200
Quote: Originally Posted by mmjarec View Post
If you want to heal then spec for it i dont expect my dps sin to be able to tank why are you special
I am not sure what you are trying to say here??

Hybrid classes can to a small extent both tank or heal while they are DPS'ing.. Even though a shadow maybe spec'd DPS, they still have a taunt.. Trooper tanks do as well... All sages have heals, even if they are not spec'd for them.. Scoundrels are no different.. They also have heals spec'd into any tree..

Which is why hybrid classes do a little bit less DPS..
Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows him?

[.] Lost but never forgotten!! 12-01-2011 R.I.P.