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Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

DarkIntelligence's Avatar


DarkIntelligence
08.27.2013 , 12:16 PM | #1
Let me preface this by saying that this is not another “You are telling me to **** and heal to full!? Hold my purse those are fightin’ words!” thread, not because I don’t think there is anything to be said about it, on the contrary in fact, but because I do not believe anything meaningful can be accomplished by pursuing that course of action.
What I want from this thread is a meaningful answer, dare I say it, supported by evidence as to the philosophy, which has become painfully clear that the developers hold, that classes which have the ability to heal cannot be expected to perform on par with classes that do not with respects to PvE and PvP DPS as well as overall PvP potential. Let me clarify that when I say “on par” I mean within a reasonable margin of around 5%, which is not the case at present (as many have pointed out it is closer to 10% or even 15%). The validity of this philosophy (again, as many have already grasped) is the crux of the argument which has arisen from the now infamous “heal to full” thread.

As a lightning sorcerer since early release, and someone who has cleared all content released to date, as well as having a good deal of PvP experience I have never understood this philosophy. As far as I am concerned literary the only instance in which the ability to heal is a noticeable asset is when soloing PvE content, that is to say leveling and doing dailies as that is the only solo content this game has to offer (with the exception of the two new Czerka SM FPs, where I guess this also applies). Aside from that and especially when it comes to group PvE content the ability to heal as an otherwise DPS class is entirely irrelevant, and though there may be extremely rare cases where throwing an extra heal might save the day, those come but once in a blue moon and are the result of either something going horribly wrong, bad luck, a poor healer, or most likely a combination of all 3. Therefore, I see no justification as to why the at least 10% disparity in DPS exists in PvE. Though it is by no means game breaking (especially for those of us who are not obsessed with getting on top of the damage charts), nor can it be the difference between downing a boss encounter (contrary to popular belief, because if things get that close then chances are your group is simply not ready for said encounter for whatever reason), this unjustifiable disparity in DPS can still keep people from playing a class they enjoy, either because they are unwilling to play a class with subpar DPS or because raid leaders will not take such a class. Regardless this is an issue which should not exist at all.

When it comes to PvP the situation is even simpler. Healing yourself or others as a DPS class in PvP is at best highly inefficient and at worst (and most often) simply an exercise in futility that serves only to prolong the inevitable and even then it prolongs it by a pitifully short amount of time. In other words even if we do try to “make them pay for trying to kill us” by simply boring them enough to make them move on to an easier target, as full healers do, we could not do it, precisely because we are NOT full healers but DPS. The ability to heal yourself as a DPS in a PvP environment is hardly an advantage at all, let alone one that justifies lower DPS and less overall survivability and defensive cooldowns.

Quite frankly, I do not see how anyone can dispute this logic, even if I do say so myself, not because I have made a particularly brilliant argument but because it is so simple I hesitate to even call it an argument at all. Why the developers can’t see it, then, is entirely beyond me.

Well that is all I have to say on the matter, now it’s up to you guys. Can any of you offer any defense for this philosophy? Can you drop some knowledge on me that can make me reconsider what I hold as self-evident? Yes Andryah, when I say this my gaze pierces the veil of the interwebs and stares right at you (not in a creepy way of course).

As always I would love to hear from a developer on this, but I am not holding my breath. Anyway, I am now off to heal myself to full!
The Dark Side of the Force is my only master, the search for power, my only quest.
___________________________________________ _______________________________________

Inflicktion's Avatar


Inflicktion
08.27.2013 , 12:24 PM | #2
Wait, are you guys demanding more survivability or dps? Or is it both now?

Covaltage's Avatar


Covaltage
08.27.2013 , 12:27 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Inflicktion View Post
Wait, are you guys demanding more survivability or dps? Or is it both now?
In the case of Sages and Sorcs, where both DPS and survivability are lower than other ranged DPS classes? Yes. Both.
Mozzìe - POT5

ImpactHound's Avatar


ImpactHound
08.27.2013 , 12:27 PM | #4
Paladins in WoW can DPS or Heal as a role.
warlocks can only DPS as a role.
Paladins who DPS can match a warlock's DPS with a 5% margin up or down from patch to patch. This is done thru reiterative changes to abilities and with new items for both specs as they are on test server.
Blizzard believes the players will not tolerate anything beyond a 2% margin and shoots for that, but frequently has spillover by outliers.

Hybrids should be competitive, but currently aren't in SWTOR.

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
08.27.2013 , 12:27 PM | #5
I don't agree with the idea of the hybrid tax, if that's what's going on here. Especially in a PVE environment, we don't want our dps having to heal during a fight when enrage timers are at stake. There is absolutely no benefit to that. Same in PVP. However, I do think people underestimate the ability to *cough* heal to full. Look through WoW arena forums and see how much QQ there is over dps classes that can heal and the explosion when certain ones didn't get a heal nerf they were proposing.

I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cooldowns, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?
Wardens of Fate / Alea Iacta Est
The Tarkus Legacy ~ The Harbinger/Jedi Covenant

Inflicktion's Avatar


Inflicktion
08.27.2013 , 12:32 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Covaltage View Post
Yes. Both.
LOL! Just had to hear that one for myself.

Inquisitors and Consulars will never be returned to their demi-god release status. The sooner you guys get over that the sooner we can all enjoy a balanced game.

Covaltage's Avatar


Covaltage
08.27.2013 , 12:35 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Inflicktion View Post
LOL! Just had to hear that one for myself.

Inquisitors and Consulars will never be returned to their demi-god release status. The sooner you guys get over that the sooner we can all enjoy a balanced game.
If you played at launch you would know that consulars were far from godly due to waiting on cast animations, and nobody is asking for godly status. We just want more than sentinels and gunslingers in our raids.
Mozzìe - POT5

SNCommand's Avatar


SNCommand
08.27.2013 , 12:36 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by chuixupu View Post
I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cooldowns, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?
If Bioware made healing useless for a DPS Sorc and gave us a group buff like Marauders and Snipers have while making our DPS close to equal I would be extremely happy with that
Quote: Originally Posted by Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
Personally I would slap Georges hands away from the editing desk, give him a colouring book and then remake the entire prequel trilogy so that Darth Vader uses the force to win breakdance competitions and chokes to death anyone who utters the word midichlorians.

-IceHawk-'s Avatar


-IceHawk-
08.27.2013 , 12:40 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by chuixupu View Post
I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cooldowns, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?
Absolutely.

The reality is that Dark Heal is an immensely Force Inefficient Heal and that the cast time on Dark Infusion combined with the likelihood of push-back makes it nigh-useless tactically.

One of the more intelligent (I think) discussions have revolved around tying Healing and DPS abilities to specific Stances for the AC which would allow individual role balancing while addressing these concerns.

Bojangle's Avatar


Bojangle
08.27.2013 , 01:05 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by chuixupu View Post
I think that if Bioware buffed Sorc dps and gave them better defensive cool downs, they would also inevitably nerf their ability to heal while in DPS spec. Would people find that an acceptable trade off?
That is the whole point. When you spec dps, you are focusing on dps not healing. A dps sorc shouldn't have to look after healing others in the raid or themselves. I don't think sorc should be glass cannons like a mage though. Sorc are pure dps classes. They can either heal or dps. But dps wise they should be a lot more competitive in numbers but not topping charts.
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