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Arena Report


JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
08.20.2013 , 07:53 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
smash mara
smash mara
op
jugg

is the best comp and is only beaten by "DONGCLEAVE" that was probably designed to beat this comp because of its overwhelming strength. dongcleave i would imagine does not perform against any other comp near as well as god cleave does though. its simply a "counter pick" to what is by far the best comp you can run at a high level.

vengeance jugg is laughable.

jugg tank is godlike. no nerf needed though as its very dependent on skill of player and a well built class for arenas in this game.

carnage is highly overrated by a lot of people right now. and is vastly inferior to rage.

annihilation is completely unviable.

deception sin is pretty good and can replace one of the maras for a comp that is still winnable against good teams but not as good as double smash. (and there are comps that you will face that will make a sin very weak and a huge handicap for your team. deception sin performs very well against all of the classes that nobody will/nobody should be running with)

all 3 sorc trees are completely and utterly awful and not even close to being viable at high level play. (time for the god buff or gg)

op healers ruined ranked 8v8 and they will ruin arenas, on many levels, unless they are nerfed into the ground. (time for the god nerf or gg)

snipers are pretty bad but probably no worse than they thought they would have it. they are fine for mid level play and solo queue against low/mid level players though.

despite what many people thought, and many still think, mercs are not very good. they arent on sorc level of bad or anything, but they are still bad and I cannot imagine why anyone would take a merc over a smash mara against any comp (at high level)

.................................................. .............................

I seriously hope that if they nerf smash they dont leave carnage and annihilation alone, believeing them to be "good enough". Because they are not.

(Right now people have a choice of running rage or carnage. If smash is nerfed into the ground then carnage will be marauders only choice. Snipers, the other 3 tree dps class, have always had 3 viable builds. I really hope they dont ruin a class in an attempt to balance it.)
I agree on your assessment of the best comp, but I really think you're selling snipers and sorcs way short. They are still powerful classes in a good player's hands and are capable of filling a slot. They just require more planning than the other classes because you can't eat **** for 30s then pop a "LOLZ IM INVINCIBLE" cooldown (actually sorcs can). And in the case of sniper, imo it's op and should compete with mara but also quite boring/annoying so nobody bothers to learn it.

I've also seen top tier sorcs easily keep up with operatives and maras in healing/dps with competent teams, so I'm not sold on them being out either.

As for carnage being overrated, I've never heard anyone say that and I've always been of the opposite opinion. It has higher killing potential, just less often than smash. But when that is available it's also more likely to succeed. It's much easier to heal through a single smash and some filler than to heal through a berserk-gore-ravage-scream-vicious throw (and retaliation if it's available). Yes it's less frequent, but the potential is superior. And before anyone says "ITS SUCCEPTIBLE TO CC!" every class dps rotation is succeptible to cc. Carnage actually has a fair use of cc/kiting protection with root breaker camo and roots built into the dps. I still think carnage is quite good.

Vengeance I think cc immunity can be very strong, nothing else to say there as the damage was kind of lacking when I played it, but I'm far from an expert on vengance. CC immunity in this game is VERY strong though.

Deception, I think it's an overrated spec especially in rated play, even arenas, for reasons I've explained a million times. But I think your point on deception was kind of leaning in my direction so we probably agree on deception's performance.

Lastly and obviously I agree with you on op healing, mara smash, and jugg tank. I also am curious of DONGCLEAVE, I have no idea why 3 PT's is somehow good but the reactions on this thread make it sound like it does indeed somehow counter the obvious comp.

SO anyway, seeing eye to eye on some things and not on others but hopefully there's some good discussion to be had here because I'm quite bored right now.
Plaje - 55 Assassin Sorcheals - 55 Sorcerer
TheHulkk - 55 Juggernaut Riksa - 55 Marauder
Ophealing - 55 Operative Lolsniper - 55 Sniper
Overpoweredtech - 29 Powertech The Bastion http://www.twitch.tv/plajje

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
08.20.2013 , 08:26 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
I agree on your assessment of the best comp, but I really think you're selling snipers and sorcs way short. They are still powerful classes in a good player's hands and are capable of filling a slot. They just require more planning than the other classes because you can't eat **** for 30s then pop a "LOLZ IM INVINCIBLE" cooldown (actually sorcs can). And in the case of sniper, imo it's op and should compete with mara but also quite boring/annoying so nobody bothers to learn it.

I've also seen top tier sorcs easily keep up with operatives and maras in healing/dps with competent teams, so I'm not sold on them being out either.

As for carnage being overrated, I've never heard anyone say that and I've always been of the opposite opinion. It has higher killing potential, just less often than smash. But when that is available it's also more likely to succeed. It's much easier to heal through a single smash and some filler than to heal through a berserk-gore-ravage-scream-vicious throw. Yes it's less frequent, but the potential is superior. And before anyone says "ITS SUCCEPTIBLE TO CC!" every class dps rotation is succeptible to cc. Carnage actually has a fair use of cc/kiting protection with root breaker camo and roots built into the dps. I still think carnage is quite good.

Vengeance I think cc immunity can be very strong, nothing else to say there as the damage was kind of lacking when I played it, but I'm far from an expert on vengance. CC immunity in this game is VERY strong though.

Deception, I think it's an overrated spec especially in rated play, even arenas, for reasons I've explained a million times. But I think your point on deception was kind of leaning in my direction so we probably agree on deception's performance.

Lastly and obviously I agree with you on op healing, mara smash, and jugg tank. I also am curious of DONGCLEAVE, I have no idea why 3 PT's is somehow good but the reactions on this thread make it sound like it does indeed somehow counter the obvious comp.

SO anyway, seeing eye to eye on some things and not on others but hopefully there's some good discussion to be had here because I'm quite bored right now.

99% of the good tanks of this game (mostly juggs but other classes too) have a "set standard way of tanking".

Dongcleave, while not composed of AMAGADOP specs like smash, counters this "set standard way of taking".

While the tanks of this game keep tanking the way they are, they are prolly getting donged.

Dongcleave is far from unbeatable, it doesnt even counter marauders (double sniper would counter marauders), it counters turtle tanking that is so powerful and common in this game.

Metagame will evolve tho who knows what the future holds.
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Some people once said i was arrogant. The state of sorc healing throught RotHC taught me humility. Bioware made me a better person.

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
08.20.2013 , 08:32 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
99% of the good tanks of this game (mostly juggs but other classes too) have a "set standard way of tanking".

Dongcleave, while not composed of AMAGADOP specs like smash, counters this "set standard way of taking".

While the tanks of this game keep tanking the way they are, they are prolly getting donged.

Dongcleave is far from unbeatable, it doesnt even counter marauders (double sniper would counter marauders), it counters turtle tanking that is so powerful and common in this game.

Metagame will evolve tho who knows what the future holds.
I think I have a few ideas on where you're going with this, but it'd be cool to see some gameplay videos. I don't really play this game anymore because frankly it sucks, but when I'm bored like I am now it's still cool to see some new stuff I haven't seen and this interests me.

And yeah I'm still left wondering why dual sniper isn't the comp of choice since it hard counters the mara/jugg so well which composes 75% of the "ideal" comp while still doing great dps and being a great class on its own. I'm surprised people are saying snipers suck in 4v4.
Plaje - 55 Assassin Sorcheals - 55 Sorcerer
TheHulkk - 55 Juggernaut Riksa - 55 Marauder
Ophealing - 55 Operative Lolsniper - 55 Sniper
Overpoweredtech - 29 Powertech The Bastion http://www.twitch.tv/plajje

Laforet's Avatar


Laforet
08.20.2013 , 08:43 PM | #124
Believer - Seer - Fatman - RETIRED

Some people once said i was arrogant. The state of sorc healing throught RotHC taught me humility. Bioware made me a better person.

Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
08.20.2013 , 08:54 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Laforet View Post
logged off, but ggs to nakrl and the others. Tuning in.
#dongfan4lyfe
Assassin Representative
Aeonneta | Shinarika | Semjase
Guides - Videos - Action
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Dantoni's Avatar


Dantoni
08.21.2013 , 12:01 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Xinika View Post
And what about Bolster? Seems you've created a monster BW. Sooner or later you'll have to address this elephant in the room because from what I've seen on the PTS, you're only sweeping the dirt under the carpet. Thing is, this won't be an easy fix either. You've based a lot of PvP around it and to strip it away would not be an easy feat. However, this problem is growing and now you've added a new layer to the problem. Stop band-aiding this mess and clean it for good. Get rid of bolster.
Why would you wanna get rid of bolster? Check this out. Seems to me you were enjoying it.
I totally agree with you, on the get rid of bolster, but I'm having trouble respecting you when you have blatant use of such. More time coming up with ideas for fixes please and less time exploiting them thank you.

Xinika's Avatar


Xinika
08.21.2013 , 12:18 AM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
smash mara
smash mara
op
jugg
It's getting really annoying seeing teams with 3 warriors on their team or even, teams without as much as 1.
Assassin Representative
Aeonneta | Shinarika | Semjase
Guides - Videos - Action
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OldSpiceSwag's Avatar


OldSpiceSwag
08.21.2013 , 12:39 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryQuan View Post
smash mara
smash mara
op
jugg

is the best comp and is only beaten by "DONGCLEAVE" that was probably designed to beat this comp because of its overwhelming strength. dongcleave i would imagine does not perform against any other comp near as well as god cleave does though. its simply a "counter pick" to what is by far the best comp you can run at a high level.

vengeance jugg is laughable.

jugg tank is godlike. no nerf needed though as its very dependent on skill of player and a well built class for arenas in this game.

carnage is highly overrated by a lot of people right now. and is vastly inferior to rage.

annihilation is completely unviable.

deception sin is pretty good and can replace one of the maras for a comp that is still winnable against good teams but not as good as double smash. (and there are comps that you will face that will make a sin very weak and a huge handicap for your team. deception sin performs very well against all of the classes that nobody will/nobody should be running with)

all 3 sorc trees are completely and utterly awful and not even close to being viable at high level play. (time for the god buff or gg)

op healers ruined ranked 8v8 and they will ruin arenas, on many levels, unless they are nerfed into the ground. (time for the god nerf or gg)

snipers are pretty bad but probably no worse than they thought they would have it. they are fine for mid level play and solo queue against low/mid level players though.

despite what many people thought, and many still think, mercs are not very good. they arent on sorc level of bad or anything, but they are still bad and I cannot imagine why anyone would take a merc over a smash mara against any comp (at high level)

.................................................. .............................

I seriously hope that if they nerf smash they dont leave carnage and annihilation alone, believeing them to be "good enough". Because they are not.

(Right now people have a choice of running rage or carnage. If smash is nerfed into the ground then carnage will be marauders only choice. Snipers, the other 3 tree dps class, have always had 3 viable builds. I really hope they dont ruin a class in an attempt to balance it.)
alright i have a few things to say.

1. im still laughing that the DONGCLEAVE is actually a thing

2. im still laughing that the DONGCLEAVE is actually f.ucking good, even though i kind of figured it would be and plan on running it sometimes

3. the almighty legendaryquan has spoken, and as usual, he has pretty much hit the nail on the head in every respect with brutal simplicity.

his god comp is correct

veng does suck (for the most part)

jugg is in a good place and amazing (other tanks need to be tankier and have more on demand damage reduction)

EVERYONE for some reason thinks carnage is still really good. its not. way too proccy and rng-y and easy to shutdown (like lightning)

annihiloltion

1 of 2 things i disagree with is that deception is "pretty good." wouldnt say pretty good id say decent and good in a beast player's hands. too op-like in that all the burst is out of stealth and has trouble sustaining and lag can make maul-positioning absolute hell, plus its pretty squishy

he is almost spot on with sorcs. everyone knows madness sucks. people who arent delusional know that lightning is way too easy to shutdown (like carnage) despite being less based on rng and is also squishy, plus can barely do any damage while kiting. good luck getting a 3-4 cast and 1-2 instant burst rotation off more than twice in a round. the surprise for most (myself included) isnt that heal sorcs are bad/difficult to play in arena/inferior to ops, its just HOW bad they actually turned out to be. it is tough as sh.it to play one competitively. i watched a stream of one of the best heal sorcs i know get f'd up after he was out of force, he couldnt heal his teammates because his innervate got interrupted, and he couldnt regain force because he was getting sat on. fix the healers

ops are going to ruin arenas. dont nerf them into the ground but put them only a little above where sorcs are now

i also disagree that snipers are "pretty bad," id say they can be actually pretty good, far better than i thought they would perform. only marksman tho

mercs suck


to bw: nerf op healing, buff merc heals, buff sorc heals, nerf smash, buff pts (all), buff merc dps just a little, buff madness a lot and lightning only so they can burst more often, and fix sins good god

OldSpiceSwag's Avatar


OldSpiceSwag
08.21.2013 , 12:39 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Dantoni View Post
Why would you wanna get rid of bolster? Check this out. Seems to me you were enjoying it.
I totally agree with you, on the get rid of bolster, but I'm having trouble respecting you when you have blatant use of such. More time coming up with ideas for fixes please and less time exploiting them thank you.
+boomheadshot+

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
08.21.2013 , 08:20 AM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by OldSpiceSwag View Post
i also disagree that snipers are "pretty bad," id say they can be actually pretty good, far better than i thought they would perform. only marksman tho

<snip>

to bw: nerf op healing, buff merc heals, buff sorc heals, nerf smash, buff pts (all), buff merc dps just a little, buff madness a lot and lightning only so they can burst more often, and fix sins good god
I've seen very little LoSing in the streams I've watched. And that's pretty much the only way to shutdown two spaced out snipers/ranged w/o building a team exclusively to counter them.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.