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Marauder class representative questions/discussion thread.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
Marauder class representative questions/discussion thread.

Gudarzz's Avatar


Gudarzz
07.29.2013 , 07:43 PM | #1
Hello everyone, I am Gudarzz and I will be serving as your marauder class representative. Thanks to everyone who voted! Hopefully, we can generate a solid discussion (along with the sentinel representative KBN) about our class and come up with some pertinent questions to present to the developers.

First, a little about myself:

I am a player for <Hey im mvp>, a rated guild on the Bastion. I have over 1000 ranked games with a 2900 rating. I have a stream where I can be reached for any comments, concerns or opinions you might have. Finally, I am a strong supporter of the SWTOR community (we recently organized a charity event to bring positive attention to our game and contribute to an awesome cause at the same time).

Now for the marauder discussion:

As you may know, we need to generate 3 questions for the developers: 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 1 "Custom". I don't want to rush into details too quickly, as I want to confirm if we should designate a particular spec for a particular question type. For example, annihilation for pvp, carnage for pve, and rage for the custom question. Of course, this is only for organizational purposes, as all suggestions/concerns should keep both PVP and PVE in consideration. After all, we don't want a change that will stabilize and balance PVP but completely undermine PVE.

Carnage:
The general complaint about carnage involves its inherent reliance on RNG. Not only does the RNG determine top end burst, but it can also lead to underwhelming dps at times. This is largely due to several factors: unintended gore/execute procs from ataru strikes, reliance on force scream auto-crits, and some rage management issues. As a primer for discussion, I would like to present some initial ideas:
- Gore/execute procs no longer trigger from random ataru strikes, but from those triggered by massacre. Adds a measure of control to burst phases.
- Gore becomes a static buff until a damaging attack (or any other ability?) is performed and the 4.5s countdown begins. In other words, gore stays up until you start attacking again. This resolves operation boss knockback issues and gives better pvp viability for carnage. It also adds an additional level of skill when it comes to countering a carnage marauder, as any class with a knockback will have to selectively use cooldowns instead of spamming them upon engagement to deny a gore buff. (i.e. knocking back based on the assumption the mara has gore vs. knocking back when the mara actually has gore)
- Allow dual saber throw to generate rage as it does with Force Vigor in rage. Resolves some rage management issues.

Annihilation:
I absolutely wanted to reserve the "pvp" question for this spec, as it seems to be a very reliable, "cut and dry" PVE spec for marauders. There is no question that the spec underperforms in rated pvp. At times, I feel like the spec is confused with itself: Is it truly a dot class despite the limited output of bleeds and weakness to cleanse? Or is it a burst spec that constantly struggles to keep the expensive and demanding annihilator buff? In terms of available specs, marauders and snipers are the only classes with 3 dps specs. Every other class has the option to serve in either the tank or healer role. Snipers are provided with a high "utility" engineering spec. So what do we do with annihilation? Should it mirror the utility of the engineering sniper as the "3rd" spec? Some primers for discussion (NOTE: Oofalong mentioned some of these ideas here):
- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.
- Annihilate can cause bonus damage based on stacks of annihilator or other factors.
- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.
- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).
- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.

Rage:
As one of the most controversial and heavily criticized specs, rage is difficult to address and balance for both PVP and PVE. As an AOE based spec, it performs too well in PVP and underperforms in PVE (unless your guild struggles at clearing trash mobs ). In PVP, the spec arguably generates better single target pressure than both annihilation and carnage with very little skill input and the added benefit of auto-crit smashes on multiple targets. There is very little risk and huge rewards (carnage burst can be denied with a knockback, annihilation dots can be countered...while rage can't be rooted). It even has a cheaper undying rage. How can this apparent "OP" spec be altered to make it more viable in PVE while keeping it under control in warzones? Some thoughts:
- WIth the exception of operation bosses, scale the damage of smash to the number of targets being hit and restore 4 stacks of shockwave. Therefore, you are penalized for hitting only a single target in PVP but still have strong single target damage in PVE. I know KBN stated a ~9% lower parse for rage and this would potentially make up some ground.

I know some of you have contacted me about general concerns. I haven't forgotten those requests. Bugs are part of every game, but the global skipping issues (happens around 5% of the time for me) have to be addressed by bioware as it threatens to diminish the quality of PVP, PVE, duels, etc.

Hopefully, I have provided some starter points for discussion. Make sure to follow KBN's sentinel thread and look out for Oofalong's posts as well. Let's keep the ideas organized and the trolls to a minimum. I await your input. Thanks!
Marauder class representative
World first to /gquit <Hey im mvp>

JediMasterSLC's Avatar


JediMasterSLC
07.29.2013 , 08:38 PM | #2
Some good ideas here, I'm optimistic.
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Bastion- Greenn-Mando, Radishz-Scoundrel, Trunkks-Shadow, Burdok-Sniper, Lettucce-PT

znihilist's Avatar


znihilist
07.29.2013 , 09:00 PM | #3
Annihilation:
Quote:
- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.
There have been an interesting suggestion in another thread here on the subforum, which is to remove the stacks of Annihilator all together, and make Annihilation a 6 sec CD ability. Now this does require reducing the damage of Annihilation by about 4~5% to counter the increase dps we get in the first 40 seconds if we are to maintain the same sustained dps. I think this is a better solution than the increase of annihilator buff duration because we are required to maintain multiple stacks for best dps. I am not arguing against stacks, my problem is the multiplicity of them.
(this will help in PvE as well)
Quote:
- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.
Indeed, but this will mess up in the very least 1v1 balance, this change will put us as the best dueling spec, if dots can't be cleansed, Agents and Assassins will cry over this one.
Quote:
- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).
- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.
I like these two very much. They will make us a very good utility spec!

If I may add one more suggestion:

I think we can change "Pulverize" to not only finish the CD on rupture but also end the effect itself by dealing the remaining damage.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sith Emperor
My ascendance is inevitable. A day, a year, a millennium--it matters not. I hold the patience of stone and the will of stars.

UncleOst's Avatar


UncleOst
07.29.2013 , 09:35 PM | #4
I have a 55 combat sent and am currently leveling a marauder.

I absolutely love the suggestions for carnage spec!

CellPerfect's Avatar


CellPerfect
07.29.2013 , 10:34 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Gudarzz View Post
As you may know, we need to generate 3 questions for the developers: 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 1 "Custom". I don't want to rush into details too quickly, as I want to confirm if we should designate a particular spec for a particular question type. For example, annihilation for pvp, carnage for pve, and rage for the custom question. Of course, this is only for organizational purposes, as all suggestions/concerns should keep both PVP and PVE in consideration. After all, we don't want a change that will stabilize and balance PVP but completely undermine PVE.
Personally I feel that asking a question does not have to be a pvp or pve based thing. Just ask the questions in a way so that it addresses both pvp and pve if that is possible. Either way here are my thoughts.

Quote:
- Gore/execute procs no longer trigger from random ataru strikes, but from those triggered by massacre. Adds a measure of control to burst phases.
I would like to see slaughter changed so that you can only proc it if gore is on cd. This would eliminate missing a gore which I find happens quite a lot more than I would like. The idea you proposed here is good but I think the slaughter change would make the change you mentioned unnecessary. The only problem I see with your change is that it would make procs for execute harder due to the fact that only one ability can proc it rather than every attack you do. WIth the slaughter change, the rng factor would be reduced a lot (you would only have to worry about execute rather than 2 procs).

Quote:
- Gore becomes a static buff until a damaging attack (or any other ability?) is performed and the 4.5s countdown begins. In other words, gore stays up until you start attacking again. This resolves operation boss knockback issues and gives better pvp viability for carnage. It also adds an additional level of skill when it comes to countering a carnage marauder, as any class with a knockback will have to selectively use cooldowns instead of spamming them upon engagement to deny a gore buff. (i.e. knocking back based on the assumption the mara has gore vs. knocking back when the mara actually has gore)
I like this one a lot actually so I could go for this.

Quote:
- Allow dual saber throw to generate rage as it does with Force Vigor in rage. Resolves some rage management issues.
This would certainly help out the rage management. I personally don't find it to be too bad (I don't spec in to cloak of carnage either and I still feel fine). The rage management is difficult which I like because it causes the person to be have to be more skilled to play the class effectively which I think is good. If they did do this then I would say to move it from the rage tree and put it here. Rage is stupidly easy to manage rage so if they lost this talent I don't think anyone would cry.

Quote:
- Duration of annihilator buff is increased. This is the cookie cutter solution, but offers great potential no doubt.
Rather than do this, I would like to see the annihilator buff only lose one stack when it runs out rather than all stacks. This would still penalize people for not using annihilate before the buff runs out but it would not be such a massive dps loss like it is now. It takes a long enough time to get all 4 stacks (which is currently something that hurts it in pvp) so losing only one stack would allow the player to get back to max dps quickly.

Quote:
- Annihilate can cause bonus damage based on stacks of annihilator or other factors.
I think the damage is fine (with everything built up it does nice dps) but that's just me. Others may feel differently.

Quote:
- Dots cannot be cleansed. Another commonly proposed solution, but no doubt very effective.
This would be a great change but I feel that simply making them uncleansable would be too over powered. Perhaps make them have a 50% chance to be uncleansable? Or make it so that When it gets cleansed there is a chance that it will do the remaining dot damage instantly. While it wouldn't be huge, the burst from that and annihilate at the same time could make the spec more effective for pvp. These are just things I thought of off the top of my head so it could use some polishing.

Quote:
- Agonizing Sabers is altered so that it also affects healing. (Try dueling a skilled operative healer and tell me when it ends ).
I doubt this would do much but it couldn't hurt I suppose.

Quote:
- Dual saber throw is granted a utility characteristic, such as knocking snipers/operatives out of cover, etc.
I realize this was just a suggestion but I would prefer not to make us a counter to a specific class. Like I said I know this was just an idea so its not set in stone or anything. I do like the idea of adding some sort of utility to it thought. Maybe make this ability have a small heal debuff? Or remove guard for a few seconds? I wouldn't want to make it too powerful but removing guard would certainly make it a powerful tool for pvp.

Quote:
- restore 4 stacks of shockwave.
Just curious as to what restoring 4 stacks would do? Currently the only difference that I can recall is that it generates 33% damage per stack currently where as it used to generate 25% per stack before.

Personally I would like to see rage be harder to play IF it stays the way it is in terms of its damage. It is way too easy to do damage in this spec and you have so many tools to survive. It got the name "smash monkey" because literally, it is so easy that a monkey could do it. The only thing that is easier to play (in my opinion) was the pyro powertech. They got a massive damage nerf and while I hate this spec, I don't want to see it be made useless. Pyro powertechs had stupidly good damage (that I considered to be op for how easy it was) but the spec was extremely squishy because it lacked defensive cds. I would like to see smash made harder to play or be easier to kill by nerfing the extra defensive cds it gets from the talents.
-Remove the talents "undying" and Force vigor" and replace those with some other type of single target damage buff. These talents could then be moved to a different talent tree.
-Move defensive roll up in the carnage talent tree so that they cannot get it while playing full rage spec (if they wanted defensive roll they would have to skip force crush which would obviously hurt the damage of this spec). I realize that this would hurt annihilation because they could no longer get the talent but something could be added to annihilation so that it could get an aoe damage reduction as well. Or the change mentioned above could be put in annihilation. I hear some people complain that annihilation is squishy (which I don't agree with, in fact I find it to be the move survivable)
-If the 2 above aren't done then I would say to nerf the damage a little by making smash only auto crit the person you are currently targeting. This would mean that the single target damage of the spec needs an increase seeing as its aoe damage would be reduced.

I think my ideas for annihilation and carnage are quite solid at least. For rage, they could use a lot more tweaking so any other thoughts would be good. Sorry for the long read as well, I tend to be long winded
Taelord
Sith Marauder
<Vicious>

UncleOst's Avatar


UncleOst
07.29.2013 , 11:36 PM | #6
Most Importantly!!!

Can you please get accuracy to scale with both sabres!!!

This attribute would benefit pve and pvp. There is no valid reason why I should have offhands miss constantly.

Thanks in advance!

Costello's Avatar


Costello
07.30.2013 , 12:01 AM | #7
From the Carnage Point of view I don't see Gore as being a major issue. With the changes in 2.0 it often refreshes faster than I need to use it anyway so for one of our big issues I feel there are other more pressing matters.

Personally I find the massive amounts of AOE damage I take in PvE and PvP to be a big issue. Having a range of 5m on most attacks I am forced to get in close. Now any half decent PvP team just floods the area with AOE damage and my options are to die or to run off doing no damage and getting shot to bits. I only have so many defensive cool downs and a few sages or smugglers can keep me away from objectives or people fairly easily. And if I do stay and try and tank it out my damage is not sufficient to out dps most classes before I'm screwed. And as said ravage is out main damage dealer and that's both a long cool down in PvP and half the time people seem to be able to walk away.

As for the PvE side of things, the devs seem determined to give more and more bosses full area damage special attacks. Great if your are in heavy armour and/or have a few heals. But for the marauder its just watching your health drop and hoping the healer in your group can get round to you in time. You are completely healer dependent for unavoidable damage that no levels of knowing your class or skill can get round.

On a side I also find our lack of a cleanse to be something of a problem, dots are very fashionable both in pvp and pve and with our lack of damage mitigation a few stacks of dots and we are in a bad bad state. Not saying we need to cleanse every dot but as it stands it feels a lot like the CC and DOT wars.

Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
07.30.2013 , 01:50 AM | #8
Congrats on the position Gudarzz! I'm confident that you will represent the class well, and you and KBN should compliment each other nicely, I think.

Now, here's my feedback on the ideas presented so far (I participate in both HM/NiM Ops and rated warzones FWIW). I've added spoiler tags since this post is very long.

Carnage
Spoiler

Annihilation
Spoiler

Rage
Spoiler


There's my 2 credits.
Lyell, Gunslinger | Rheiya, Guardian | Adelynn, Sage | Fyrellis, Sentinel | Kayleen, Shadow | Bao-der, Vanguard | Hailey, Commando
Syeeda, Operative | Circumspectus, Sniper | Freiya, Juggernaut | Shyala, Powertech | Zeyus, Marauder
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znihilist's Avatar


znihilist
07.30.2013 , 02:50 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Gondolindhrim View Post
Cookie cutter as it may be, this should definitely happen. It wouldn't really lower the skill cap of the spec, since Annihilate is used on cooldown anyway. With the amount of downtime you have in both PvE and PvP, ramp up time is just too long as is. Another nice buff would be if Frenzy added a stack or two of Annihilator.

Snip

I'll be honest, I like the concept of building up momentum (i.e. Annihilator stacks) and not reaching full potential immediately. It's unique and interesting, to me at least. I'd rather see the duration increased, and perhaps a way to (infrequently) generate multiple stacks to mitigate the negative impact of unavoidable downtime (such as my earlier suggestion to let Frenzy generate a stack or two).

snip

Not a bad idea in a vacuum, but I'd rather see this for a spec with longer DoT durations (perhaps Madness). It'd lower the skill cap too, which is something I'll rarely support.
The problem is that the position of Annihilation at this moment does not justify the skill required for it. When you have specs as simple as Arsenal, you can't justify a melee spec having a much higher skill cap. We are not even in top 5 spots of DPS if we were willing to consider this thread. What I am trying to say here is that there is some fundamental issues with the spec itself that are not mitigated by its performance in PvE and PvP (it is much worse for PvP). Slightly lowering the skill cap is irrelevant in this context IMO.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sith Emperor
My ascendance is inevitable. A day, a year, a millennium--it matters not. I hold the patience of stone and the will of stars.

AngusFTW's Avatar


AngusFTW
07.30.2013 , 03:00 AM | #10
I can't help but think anni could use some cc immunity on say leap like say vigilance/vengeance for more pvp viability, the reason for this is you have to stay on a target to deal out maximum dmg and building stacks of juyo etc. It takes a while to build up your dmg and with the amount of cc in the game i'd say this would make the spec much more enjoyable in pvp while not really giving any OP pve consequences (except maybe against bosses like dash'roode with knock-backs..).
This along with the cleanse immunity on berserk/zen could go along way with making the spec better. Also a crit % increase talent for merciless slash/annihilate would be good..
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