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How to Balance the Tank/Heal Dynamic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
How to Balance the Tank/Heal Dynamic

SOULCASTER's Avatar


SOULCASTER
07.20.2013 , 08:51 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by TheCourier- View Post
No more buffs to commando for a while. That class already has one of the best DPS specs of SWTOR (gunnery), and the medic spec isn't as awful as some people claim that it is. I have a friend that I play with that routinely does well with commando medic. He's played the class for over a year, and he still plays commando medic.

Give an anti-guard mechanic to watchman sentinel and pyro powertech, those are two of the medic killers of SWTOR.
Commando medic does play well. Problem is the other 2 healers (more-so scoundrel) out-shine commando by a considerable margin. Which is the problem. Its not bad, no. But its not nearly as good as the others. Commando's Single-Target Healing just simply is NOT good at keeping 8 people alive at once, like sage and scoundrel is. Thats all. Its a single-target burst healer class that can be super tanky.

Commando just needs the action management changes that it had back near launch, with things like Supercharged Cells/Gas giving you 2 ammo back, not the 1 that it does now, etc etc, and it would be perfectly on par with the other 2 classes.
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Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
07.20.2013 , 08:57 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by ManiacDavis View Post
There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.).
So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.
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OldSpiceSwag's Avatar


OldSpiceSwag
07.20.2013 , 09:06 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ManiacDavis View Post
There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.).

A. HOT Purge Ability

I have never been a fan of nerfing classes only to buff them later. The best way to combat this appearance of overpoweredness is to create a hard counter to healing and guarding. What really gives the scoundrel an edge over other healers is the spammable slow-release medpack. Instead of nerfing the scoundrel, give other classes the ability to purge this ability.

Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. This allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff. This could also be used by the sage on their cleanse.

I suggest the Sage and Commando because the Sentinel and Gunslinger already have trauma reducing heals received. Sage and Commando are arguably the weakest classes in ranked atm, and this gives them some added utility in pvp situations.

B. Guard Debuff

A guarded target redirects 50% of all dmg to the tank, whereby it can be mitigated by the tank's stats. This means that to kill a socundrel with 30k hp, you need to inflict 60k dmg. This alone creates situations in ranked where guarded targets are impossible to kill. Additionally, with how mobile guardian tanks are (force leap/guardian leap) it is unlikely that you can effectively pull the tank out of range of the guard. This is why I suggest the following.

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.
1. your hot purge ability is stupid, sorry. the scoundrel can just recast hots all day all night without worrying about energy. the sage/commando would lose more dps spamming this ability off cd to try and keep up without inflicting any real damage. the problem IS the scoundrels: they need an energy nerf, after that they may be fine.

2. sages and mercs are definitely more viable than all pt specs, fyi.

3. if you gave only commandos the guard debuff you arent fixing anything at all. the issue with heals/tanking is that it is universal and constant. little spikes in dps on one healer will get you a kill, maybe...but only one, maybe.

there isnt a hard counter to implement that can fix this. it needs to be a change to the meta of the game itself, not abilities that try and stall the heals/guard combo. rateds would still feel defensivy and not fun even if these were implemented. not sure how to fix this huge issue except by nerfing scoundrel energy, which alone wouldnt fix it, but i dont have any other ideas.

OldSpiceSwag's Avatar


OldSpiceSwag
07.20.2013 , 09:07 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.
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ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
07.20.2013 , 09:16 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
L2P is the real issue here.
Congrats on being the first one to start the famous L2P. Lets just assume everyone posting is a competent player who has ranked experience before questioning another players ability to play the game.

On to your argument that this would nerf sage healing. Sages derive most of their heals from casted abilities or the AOE heals. None of which would be effected by the suggested purge ability. The suggested guard debuff would inhibit all Healers. If anything, the Sage Immunity bubble is the best counter to this. For example, commando electro-nets sage, sage uses CC breaker, Sage bubbles, by the time the bubble is down so is electro net and the sage can be guarded again.
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Gondolindhrim's Avatar


Gondolindhrim
07.20.2013 , 09:18 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by irojoz View Post
no...
your head is in the right place, but making a class a complete HARD counter to another class, to the point where they take them out of the equation is not the way to go.
I agree with this. I wouldn't be against an offensive purge on a longish cooldown, but give it to more than one AC (and don't give it to Gunslingers|Snipers or Sentinels|Marauders, they've got Trauma). Other things that could be done are for example buffing Trauma applied by Flourish Shot|Shatter Shot and Crippling Throw|Deadly Throw and perhaps adjusting Guard by either tweaking the amount of damage redirected (make it 45 or 40%), the range requirement or giving it a short cooldown).
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szczypaczek's Avatar


szczypaczek
07.20.2013 , 09:18 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.
Jesus bro i have scoundrel healer myself, but cant stand these anwsers like "l2p". If u don't see the problem with this boring tank + healer meta game and your only solution is l2p, maybe just don't say anything. I have a scoundrel healer and i must say that the most fun wzs are those, where i'm the only healer on my team. This meta is simply boring, and don't tell me about skill, when half the team are healers and tanks You wont be able to kill anything with single target dps
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Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
07.20.2013 , 10:22 AM | #18
Give something to powertech/VGs as far as a healing debuff maybe.

Other than that, on my Gunslinger, I have been having fun today just switching to DF. Never would have thought it would add so much pressure. A lot of the healers when focused run back to the back of the pack to try to get away and it seems the DOTs keep them moving and give them at least something else to worry about. I realize good healers who do ranked probably will be less effected, but its something.

That said, buff maddness in the upper tiers. That will give another healer harasser.
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maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.20.2013 , 10:32 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.
No, the problem here is that the class with the lowest risk (op) has the highest rewards.

In a balanced scenario, high risk should = high reward. So if you have a sage casting heals, he should (if left uninterrupted) dominate the healing ACs. He has to position properly, move away from enemies, and likely needs a guard and peels to succeed.
Operatives should be at the bottom, because most of their heals are instant, and should heal for less because there is near zero risk involved. Operatives have no positioning worries, if they screw up they can ROLL ROLL away, or stealth out quickly.
Mercs are somewhere in the middle, but I don't know exactly where because I rarely see one.
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JohnElias's Avatar


JohnElias
07.20.2013 , 10:51 AM | #20
The reasons Opscounds heal so much is because of their HoT capabilities just like a Lethality/Madness tree, they will pump out incredible DPS/HPS, but focused burst and control of the Opscound healer will negate his performance to heal his teammates. Take note of his Tactical Advantage, once that runs out he will NOT be able to cast Surgical Probe (Spam heal as most call it). In order to defeat an Opscound, you really need to control his Tactical Advantages. CC him, push him AWAY from the fight. Yes, he can roll, but there's energy to take notice of. I admit, at the moment it's ridiculously easy, pre2.0 we were in a good state. Now with the tools we have to get our Tactical Advantage is what makes us overpowered (according to some). Considering the dps capabilities of some classes it's arguable whether it's a L2P issue or really a balance issue. Good arguments can be made from both parties.

You all say a competent healer/tank is unkillable, but a competent DPS force is capable of eventually killing the healer, and then the tank, people just don't always know how to counter an Opscound healer, or how it works.

P.S: I did not read the entire thread. I just posted my opinion. If you do nerf heals, please buff DPS. My 2 cents
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