Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

How to Balance the Tank/Heal Dynamic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
How to Balance the Tank/Heal Dynamic

ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
07.20.2013 , 07:44 AM | #1
There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.)

I have never been a fan of nerfing classes only to buff them later. The best way to combat this appearance of overpoweredness is to create a soft/hard counter to healing and guarding. As many people have mentioned, some ways to counter this is too pull the guarded target out of guard range, cc other healers, have amazing focus. The reality is that, in theory these are great ideas, but in practice hardly ever work.

A. HOT Purge Ability

What really gives the scoundrel an edge over other healers is the spammable slow-release medpack. Instead of nerfing the scoundrel, give other classes the ability to purge this ability.

Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. This allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff. This could also be used by the sage on their cleanse.

I suggest the Sage and Commando because the Sentinel and Gunslinger already have trauma reducing heals received. Sage and Commando are arguably the weakest classes in ranked atm, and this gives them some added utility in pvp situations.

B. Guard Debuff

A guarded target redirects 50% of all dmg to the tank, whereby it can be mitigated by the tank's stats. This means that to kill a scoundrel with 30k hp, you need to inflict 60k dmg. This alone creates situations in ranked where guarded targets are impossible to kill. Additionally, with how mobile guardian tanks are (force leap/guardian leap) it is unlikely that you can effectively pull the tank out of range of the guard. This is why I suggest the following.

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.
Man-iac - The Only Commando Left Standing
http://www.twitch.tv/rrmaniac

uncle_monty's Avatar


uncle_monty
07.20.2013 , 07:59 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by ManiacDavis View Post
There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.).

A. HOT Purge Ability

I have never been a fan of nerfing classes only to buff them later. The best way to combat this appearance of overpoweredness is to create a hard counter to healing and guarding. What really gives the scoundrel an edge over other healers is the spammable slow-release medpack. Instead of nerfing the scoundrel, give other classes the ability to purge this ability.

Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. This allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff. This could also be used by the sage on their cleanse.

I suggest the Sage and Commando because the Sentinel and Gunslinger already have trauma reducing heals received. Sage and Commando are arguably the weakest classes in ranked atm, and this gives them some added utility in pvp situations.

B. Guard Debuff

A guarded target redirects 50% of all dmg to the tank, whereby it can be mitigated by the tank's stats. This means that to kill a socundrel with 30k hp, you need to inflict 60k dmg. This alone creates situations in ranked where guarded targets are impossible to kill. Additionally, with how mobile guardian tanks are (force leap/guardian leap) it is unlikely that you can effectively pull the tank out of range of the guard. This is why I suggest the following.

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.

What I really like about your suggestions is that they would not effect pve at all, this in turn makes them much more viable. However, the purging of the guard by electronet is attractive, but the ability to purge a guard should not be restricted to one class. I like your thinking though. I would forward them to your class rep, when you get one
"You now understand why an exotic weapon or unfamiliar style will be more difficult to defend against, but until you become an expert in a particular style, in the heat of combat your mind will still struggle to grasp it's limitations."
Dark Lord Kas'im - Darth Bane 1 Path of Destruction

irojoz's Avatar


irojoz
07.20.2013 , 08:06 AM | #3
no...
your head is in the right place, but making a class a complete HARD counter to another class, to the point where they take them out of the equation is not the way to go.
Only way i can see this working is if this so calld cleanse is on a 20-30 cooldown. Being able to sit there and cleanse all the HoTs would break the scoundrel completely. So you need to think about this more before trying to come up with anything to make commandos into this OP class.
While we are at it, lets make it so unremitting can pierce through dodge, undying rage, and commando shield. Every class is gonna need a hard counter to another class in maniac's world.
Back to the drawingboard.

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
07.20.2013 , 08:09 AM | #4
is there a reason why you want commandos to be the god class?

ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
07.20.2013 , 08:18 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by irojoz View Post
no...
your head is in the right place, but making a class a complete HARD counter to another class, to the point where they take them out of the equation is not the way to go.
Only way i can see this working is if this so calld cleanse is on a 20-30 cooldown. Being able to sit there and cleanse all the HoTs would break the scoundrel completely. So you need to think about this more before trying to come up with anything to make commandos into this OP class.
While we are at it, lets make it so unremitting can pierce through dodge, undying rage, and commando shield. Every class is gonna need a hard counter to another class in maniac's world.
Back to the drawingboard.
Cleanse is currently on a 4.5s cooldown, I have no problem increasing it to 10-12 seconds.
Man-iac - The Only Commando Left Standing
http://www.twitch.tv/rrmaniac

Razamatazz's Avatar


Razamatazz
07.20.2013 , 08:21 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
is there a reason why you want commandos to be the god class?
1. He likely plays a Commando, at least his pic suggests he likes them.
2. Uhhh, aren't Commandos kind of lackluster right now?
3. It's on a 1.5 minute cool down, and would require coordination to be really effective.

I don't really think making the change to electro net would make a Commando a god class, I think it would give them a spot on ranked teams while also helping to break stalemates in VS while also make capping side nodes possible in CW (though the side speeder removal should help this). I think he gave a level approach that is a reasonable, though not OP'd, approach to dealing with what can be a very difficult team to kill in RWZ's, the aforementioned healer tank combo.

ManiacDavis's Avatar


ManiacDavis
07.20.2013 , 08:24 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
is there a reason why you want commandos to be the god class?
I'm not suggesting doing both. One of these suggestions would be enough to change Heal/Tank Dynamics. I also stated my reason for using the SAGE and commando class for these suggestions.
Man-iac - The Only Commando Left Standing
http://www.twitch.tv/rrmaniac

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
07.20.2013 , 08:26 AM | #8
The issue with healing is that it is designed around PVE content.

PVE is simple. Tank takes the agro. Healers free cast. It is the easiest thing in the world to balance.

In PvP, this doesn't work because the PRIMARY target is the healer. Healers are essentially tanking the fight. Healing classes that rely heavily on casted abilities are naturally going to be weaker than those that do not. Operatives and Scoundrels are the least affected class because practically all of their abilities are instant cast.

The only solution I can think of is to ensure that the primary target is always the tank. An off the wall idea which I don't actually advocate is to make it so that guard gives healers immunity to all interrupts and pushbacks. This means that Operatives lose their advantage over the other 2 healing classes and forces players to attack the tank instead of the healer who will be utterly destroyed once the guard is gone. Heals can then take a broad healing cut via the expertise stat to cater for the fact that they cant be interupted. Unfortunately this also means that healers will need a tank queuing with them to be even remotely useful and so it's a half *** solution to a dirty problem. Something to think about anyway.

SOULCASTER's Avatar


SOULCASTER
07.20.2013 , 08:42 AM | #9
I like this idea a lot. Good suggestion OP.

Perhaps make cleanse (while in Pyro/assault spec, arguably the weakest of the 3 commando/merc specs) have the HoT Purge. Keep in mind increasing the cooldown on the 6 second cleanse, will also break its true use, cleansing other people's DoTs. So you can't have cleanse on a 1min cooldown or anything crazy, IMO)

If you want to take this thread even crazier, you could suggest something like:
...using (only) your single-target Taunt Ability on a tank will drop that tank's guard on a friendly player for the duration of the taunt, then automatically reguarding the target after the taunt wears off.

This would give players a 6 second window to burst a healer, while the guard is down. Keep in mind if everyone is saving their taunts for a Tank/Healer Combo, then they also aren't using taunts on the dps that is trying to burn your team down. So its use can then be chosen tactically depending on the situation.

Taunts are also on a long cooldown, making this idea already pretty balanced.
Soulcaster
www.twitch.tv/CidxPvP
Come watch me log on and hit the buttons that light up!

TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.20.2013 , 08:44 AM | #10
No more buffs to commando for a while. That class already has one of the best DPS specs of SWTOR (gunnery), and the medic spec isn't as awful as some people claim that it is. I have a friend that I play with that routinely does well with commando medic. He's played the class for over a year, and he still plays commando medic.

Give an anti-guard mechanic to watchman sentinel and pyro powertech, those are two of the medic killers of SWTOR.