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Why people think healers are Op

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Why people think healers are Op

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
07.19.2013 , 04:44 AM | #21
Then you need to make it much more difficult to protect the healers in the first place if you don't want to nerf their survivability. Nerf healing received from other healers, nerf guard or give stealth DPS guard penetration.

When my friendly healer is within the line of sight of my sniper, no melee will ever get to put a scratch on him. And I am just a DPS class, give the healer a tank and he has absolutely no problem at healing at his own leisure.

Make healers VULNERABLE. Those few moments kweasa is talking about when healers are not being protected by their team, a scoundrel op can easily mitigate with a crapload of escapes and CC he has, including flashbang, debilitate, combat stealth, lolroll and evasion.

When he is being guarded and protected he rarely needs any of these tools to survive, so he can usually keep them for dire situations when his team mates are snoozing.

It's EASY TO KEEP YOUR HEALER FRIEND ALIVE. E-A-S-Y.

And they nerfed one of the mobile DPS that used to be a good threat to healers: PT Pyro. What? Are you expecting us, ranged DPS to put the same kinda of pressure like a Pyrotech did? We don't go arround the corner, we are not good at hunting down our target, the moment when ranged DPS overcommits it DIES. You need mobile melee DPS to actually threaten them.

Healer fanboys keep saying how DPS shouldn't be able to kill healers, ok, you got this state already with Snipers, Mercs and Sorcs. LoS then and you are safe. But don't make the life of melee DPS at killing healers difficult. They need to hardcounter them if they don't have protection from their team.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
07.19.2013 , 05:09 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Then you need to make it much more difficult to protect the healers in the first place if you don't want to nerf their survivability. Nerf healing received from other healers, nerf guard or give stealth DPS guard penetration.
Hm, I'm thinking, reducing guard to 30% and 10 meters instead of 15? Would that work you think?

Ofc, that would hurt my protection medals on PT Tank, BUT I woulnd't boost stealth classes more, my assassin is doing good and my friends concealment operative snips (not a dirty joke) people nicely too (when we meet in WZ and other team has 2 defenders, we challenge each other on who will get his target first, for lols) , giving us penetration (that is not a dirty joke either, I don't want another warnings please) will result in another damage nerf.
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

wwkingms's Avatar


wwkingms
07.19.2013 , 05:39 AM | #23
cause when i do 1million dmg done and 2 other dps as well..

i expect more than 4 kills
NIHIL

THE BASTION

Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
07.19.2013 , 06:21 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
Hm, I'm thinking, reducing guard to 30% and 10 meters instead of 15? Would that work you think?

Ofc, that would hurt my protection medals on PT Tank, BUT I woulnd't boost stealth classes more, my assassin is doing good and my friends concealment operative snips (not a dirty joke) people nicely too (when we meet in WZ and other team has 2 defenders, we challenge each other on who will get his target first, for lols) , giving us penetration (that is not a dirty joke either, I don't want another warnings please) will result in another damage nerf.
I actually think giving stealthers openers that ignore guard is a great idea. You don't have to change their damage at all. Just make it so like shoot first (in scrapper spec) removes guard for like 8 seconds or something and spike (in deception) have a similar effect. It fits well with their archetype and would give them more reasons to go into the thick of a fight. I also think it would bring them more in line with having a ranked spot outside of being a healer/node guarder. It would change the meta game for the better imo as now there would be a real counter to guard.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
07.19.2013 , 06:47 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Raansu View Post
I actually think giving stealthers openers that ignore guard is a great idea. You don't have to change their damage at all. Just make it so like shoot first (in scrapper spec) removes guard for like 8 seconds or something and spike (in deception) have a similar effect. It fits well with their archetype and would give them more reasons to go into the thick of a fight. I also think it would bring them more in line with having a ranked spot outside of being a healer/node guarder. It would change the meta game for the better imo as now there would be a real counter to guard.
I really doubt that developers will have courage to mess with the guard mechanics, even though this could potentially make the game more fun and more enteraining. There needs to be a specialist at disrupting healer+tank combos in the game. The CC is not enough as it is a two edged sword, you can try to cc them, but you are vulnerable to CC as well, and giving tanks/healers resolve is not something i would do..

Besides separating tank from healer is often pointless as jugs can intercede to their healers, sorcs ca pull tanks back to them, sins can force speed to their healers and ops can lol roll.

If hidden strike penetrated the guard, then you would be able to find a rare moment of opportunity when to open on an unexpecting healer.
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

TheOneWag's Avatar


TheOneWag
07.19.2013 , 07:46 AM | #26
1. Give Roll a short CD

2. Force Scoperatives to actually cast something (like the other two healers have to)

3. Pick two of the three: Reduce the healing power of their instants / make instants more expensive / make Slow Release have to have 3 stacks to get the same healing as 2 stacks has right now.

Class fixed.

Raansu's Avatar


Raansu
07.19.2013 , 08:41 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
I really doubt that developers will have courage to mess with the guard mechanics, even though this could potentially make the game more fun and more enteraining. There needs to be a specialist at disrupting healer+tank combos in the game. The CC is not enough as it is a two edged sword, you can try to cc them, but you are vulnerable to CC as well, and giving tanks/healers resolve is not something i would do..

Besides separating tank from healer is often pointless as jugs can intercede to their healers, sorcs ca pull tanks back to them, sins can force speed to their healers and ops can lol roll.

If hidden strike penetrated the guard, then you would be able to find a rare moment of opportunity when to open on an unexpecting healer.
It wouldn't hurt to throw the idea into the suggestion box, but ya I doubt BW would ever implement something like that. It is still a great idea though. Never thought of that before but the concept is great.

Odahviin's Avatar


Odahviin
07.19.2013 , 09:01 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Cretinus View Post
So basically, you're good, but the enemy team and your team mates are all bads? That's called a geocentric perception of oneself.
omgosh right?

galaxivurse's Avatar


galaxivurse
07.19.2013 , 09:29 AM | #29
How to kill a scoundrel/op healer: From a scoundrel/op healer's POV

My whole point with this post is to show the viability of shutting down a scoundrel / op healer in a 1v1 situation (of course the healer is hard to kill when guarded and getting peels, that fact, and only that fact, is why 1 dps frequently can not effectively shut down a healer (any class)). I am only posting to show that it is viable and to reveal strategies for doing so. Claiming that one decent dps should be able to shut down (notice I did not say kill) one decent heals is a reasonable expectation (see previous post on this thread) - claiming that you cannot do this sounds to me like you simply do not know your class or perhaps are too unfamiliar with the scoundrel/op healing class against which you are fighting.

So, my imperfect, yet enlightening guide proceeds (and not in any logical order / priority listing):

1. Learn to DoT:

Scoundrels' vanish is effectively shutdown by maintaining a DoT on him throughout the 1v1. You must maintain this DoT as disappearing act takes the scoundrel out of combat and therefore opens a broad array of options for regenerating health / resource. I know, scoundrels have a cleanse on a 5s cd - this is where AoE comes in. Vanish is hard to counter, and it is meant to be that way. However, you don't have to worry about this much as the cd is rather lengthy. In addition, if the healer disappears to retreat and recuperate, guess what!? you have momentarily shut down his heals and have therefore accomplished your goal! Often shutting down a healer will not include killing him - remember, your goal is to simply stop the flow of regeneration to the enemy dps; a goal accomplished through killing, yes, but not always.

2. Learn to interrupt:

This is painfully obvious...or at least you would think so. Its amazing how many dps let me free cast in 1v1 situations. The goal of a dps while soloing a healer is not to hit his interrupt hotkey the moment he sees the cast bar appear. Fortunately, for most healers, this is the kind of fail knee jerk reaction most dps have. Stop interrupting diagnostic scan - the only reason he is channeling is to bait and switch for underworld medicine + emergency medpac - the BEST burst heal combo in the game. You must save your interrupt for underworld medicine--this is essential.

3. Learn to avoid double cc:

One of the most common openers for a scoundrel/op healer who is being focused in a 1v1 is the four second stun. And what is the next knee jerk derps' reaction? "CC breaker! Aha! Can't stop my l33t burst amazingness! Die OP easy mode kill-stealing jerkface!!!" This is frequently followed by a lull (while the healer eats up your burst cd's) then an 8 sec soft stun. Woops! No cc breaker and the healer is now out of range, in cover, and spamming heals!

4. Learn to save your cc for when he is below 30%:

Because of the ability to freely spam emergency medpac when in the seemingly vulnerable state of below 30% health, this is the key moment to capitalize on your own cc. If you have a soft stun, you, of course will want to use that first. Once the scoundrel's cc breaker is awaiting cd your opportunity to strike has presented itself. Hard stun + burst cd's = dead *OP* healer - eazy peazy.

A scoundrel/op healer shines brightest when below 30% health, granted he has a charge of upperhand. Unfortunately, most dps classes have already flexed all their cd's for their opening and are, at this point in the fight, struggling with resource management. So what happens? Standard attack no-avail button-mashing frenzy + angry dps = qq forum post.

5. Learn to slow:

This effectively shuts down the "lolroll" as it has been *affectionately* dubbed (btw, the scoundrel was in need of a physics move for a long time as he was the only class that did not have a speed burst / leap / push / pull / knockback / or the like - the lolroll was a long overdue, and perfectly fair addition (biased as my opinion may be)). Putting a slow effect on the scoundrel/op lowers the effective distance of scamper from 12m to 6m. If the scoundrel healer has full resource he can roll 5 or 6 times before completely depleting resource, however, he often does not have full resource and therefore, you can stop his roll well within distance of your range or leap as it may be. And for the record: mad that the scoundrel once again rolled away to safety? Why? You effectively removed heals from the fight for the time being and you are now free to dps away on the now vulnerable enemy team. But I DIDN'T...GET...THE KILL! >: ( ...um...and? Heals is temporarily shut down - job well done.

6. Learn to stop prematurely blowing all your cd's:

I know the big numbers are fun to see...especially when they are all in a row...oh wow, such awesomeness!!! But blowing your cd's as your opener effectively put the fight in the favor of the scoundrel for reasons listed above. Here's a shocker: fighting a 1v1 against a healer is fundamentally different than fighting a 1v1 against a dps or even a tank!

Fighting a healer is not a matter of bursting his health bar - its a matter of milking his resource. Learn this and do well you will.

7. Learn to drop your false expectations:

Of course it will be a long fight. Sorry, but one-shotting the healer with your epic burst is just not a possibility, nor should it be your strategy. Realize that its going to be a long fight and the longer you focus the scoundrel/op, the harder it is for him to keep his health up. How is this so? Because the scoundrel healer relies heavily on his charges of upper hand. When he is not free to spam slow release med pack to proc upper hand, his pool of HoT's from which to draw charges will begin to dwindle - this will keep the e-medpac spam to a minimum at worst, and shut it down completely at best.



In conclusion, my observations are as follows:

1) One good dps can effectively shutdown one good operative / scoundrel healer.

2) You can't kill a healer that is guarded and is being peeled? Of course you can't! This is why individuals fail and teamwork succeeds against good tank/heal combinations.

3) Not being able to kill a healer that is guarded and being peeled should not lead to forum qq about op'd classes.

4) Of course I don't want to see my AC nerfed (as it is the last viable scoundrel AC post-lowbie imo) - does this mean my post lacks objectivity - not in the least .

5) If you think scoundrel heals are op'd or fotm or whatever you think - then lolroll one!



--------------------

P.S. My humble opinion on why there are so many scoundrel/op heals atm: while the class is good, and fun to play as heals, I think many are discouraged by the lack of viability of the scoundrel scrapper spec. I rolled this class specifically to play scrapper but was quickly disenchanted once I got out of lowbies (not because I couldn't one shot but because 1) the burst is not as powerful as it should be and 2) the "in combat" system is waaay too glitchy to be reliable). Fix the scrapper spec - fix the proliferation of scoundrel heals.

The scrapper scoundrel should be just as viable as the infiltration shadow.
Wahylee - Scoundrel

Werdan's Avatar


Werdan
07.19.2013 , 09:43 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by NoTomorrow View Post
Then you need to make it much more difficult to protect the healers in the first place if you don't want to nerf their survivability. Nerf healing received from other healers, nerf guard or give stealth DPS guard penetration.
I remember a thread not too long ago on this subject and all the QQ from tanks was insane. I personally think guard is too easy of a mechanic and needs to have the skill level raised on it. For instance giving guard a CD and/or adding a negative effect on the player it's used on. For example, a high amount of reduced outgoing damage/healing to the guarded player. In other words make guard more of an oh crap ability and less of a god mode ability to healers.

It will probably never happen. The flood of tears on the forums would see to that. That said, there are other things that could be done to tone down the amount of healing. The easiest way would be to reduce/remove the bonus healing from expertise or significantly increase the effect of the trauma debuff. Lastly, allowing taunts to affect healing output (taunted targets healing output reduced by 50% for 6 seconds) is another way to curb the numbers we see in WZ's.
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