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Didn't Palpatine violate the rule of two.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Didn't Palpatine violate the rule of two.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.13.2013 , 03:58 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Palpatine did as Bane would have wanted. He said that the Sith will have to rely on cunning and deceit. Palpatine used those tools to lay Plagueis low. Plagueis was a fool to think that Palpatine would remain his underling.
Remember what Bane said to Zannah though:

Bane: The mantle must be earned. You wanted to wait, to take it by default.

Zannah: Your taught me patience, you taught me to bide my time.

Bane: Not in this! Only the strongest has the right to rule the Sith! The title of Dark Lord must be seized, wrenched from the all-powerful grasp of the Master!


Using deception and cunning to take Plagueis down was a direct violation of the Rule of Two.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
07.13.2013 , 04:06 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
What Darth Krayt establishing.
Actually its something different, it just has the same name. To quote Wookieepedia:

Darth Sidious's doctrine was conceived to replace the Rule of Two, a doctrine he considered to have fulfilled its purpose by placing him in power, his Rule of One first proposed in his writing Absolute Power, in which the Sith would be embodied by a sole reigning Dark Lord—Sidious himself—who would live forever as Emperor of the galaxy with no need to train a replacement, only capable executioners of his will talented in the Force as dark side agents. These agents learned a smattering of Palpatine's abilities, and did not even take a fraction of his authority. Although officially, it resembled Darth Bane's Rule of Two in terms of apprentices and the punishment thereof regarding violating that rule, it was in reality completely different, as there was no chance of succession for his Sith apprentices.


And to quote the Book of Anger in Absolute Power:

As Darth Bane instituted the Rule of Two, so I will begin the Rule of One. The Sith will now be sustained by one - one to hold the power and others, talented in the Force, to execute my will as dark side agents.

Palpatine was likely so confident in his own ability that he didn't feel the need to prove himself against his Master, and simply cast him aside when he was no longer needed. This also likely accounts for his attempts to control Vader, how he didn't hesistate to cripple Marek (DS ending) and kill Luke Skywalker.

Whether Bane would have advocated the Rule of One is a different question.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
07.13.2013 , 04:12 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Remember what Bane said to Zannah though:

Bane: The mantle must be earned. You wanted to wait, to take it by default.

Zannah: Your taught me patience, you taught me to bide my time.

Bane: Not in this! Only the strongest has the right to rule the Sith! The title of Dark Lord must be seized, wrenched from the all-powerful grasp of the Master!


Using deception and cunning to take Plagueis down was a direct violation of the Rule of Two.
He took advantage of Plagueis' weakness. Maybe he went about it wrong, but we know that he was more powerful than Plagueis was. Call it risk management.

The Rule of Two had already gone out of style by then, too. Plagueis wasn't exactly a proponent of it, at least, the part about him getting killed.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Kaisernick's Avatar


Kaisernick
07.14.2013 , 05:28 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by BradTheImpaler View Post
I
As for Plagueis's death, though, there's really nothing in the rule of two that says you can't kill your master in his sleep. It might be seen as cowardly, or just as opportunistic, but it does the job.
was more manly than malak at least palpatine got up close to do it rather than shoot from afar.

As for the hands and such they were never trained much as a result they were not really sith just well trained force sensitives.

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turnoverla-page
07.15.2013 , 12:30 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaisernick View Post
was more manly than malak at least palpatine got up close to do it rather than shoot from afar.

As for the hands and such they were never trained much as a result they were not really sith just well trained force sensitives.
malak was before the rule of two though

Kaisernick's Avatar


Kaisernick
07.16.2013 , 06:41 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by turnoverla-page View Post
malak was before the rule of two though
my point was simply that palpatines actions were sith like than malak, he was afraid to do the work up close.

BIG_M's Avatar


BIG_M
07.16.2013 , 10:50 AM | #17
I thought i remember reading somewhere to say that cunning and treachery was its own strength and if the master couldn't defend against the apprentices schemes and even going so far as to kill them in their sleep was another way to prove that the apprentice was stronger and therefore palpatines master was weaker than good old palpy.
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BradTheImpaler's Avatar


BradTheImpaler
07.16.2013 , 08:36 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by BIG_M View Post
I thought i remember reading somewhere to say that cunning and treachery was its own strength and if the master couldn't defend against the apprentices schemes and even going so far as to kill them in their sleep was another way to prove that the apprentice was stronger and therefore palpatines master was weaker than good old palpy.
This.
In Malak's case, he definitely was weaker and cowardly, and his brilliant "Imma kill everyone in one shot" plan backfired pretty quickly.

Generally speaking, though, cunning and treachery----or more broadly manipulation with and without the Force, was considered a strength for Sith, before and after the Rule of Two.

"A Sith is not a Bantha, all endurance and no brains".

Plagueis, for all his brilliance, still let himself believe that Sidious would not backstab him.

Those who count on Sidious's loyalty are shooting themselves in the foot.
In the Imperial Army, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance.

Jandi's Avatar


Jandi
07.17.2013 , 01:27 AM | #19
I think Bane intended that the confrontation between master and apprentice was meant to be face to face, power to power and save the scheming and backstabbing for other things. If the master has to spend the better part of his or her life wary of a cowardly sneak attack or some form of sabotage they cannot spend time growing stronger themselves, leading to weaker Sith cowering in a hole somewhere.

Of course, the whole rule of two is stupidity of the highest order, but I'm not going to delve into that.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
07.17.2013 , 05:19 PM | #20
Its to my belief and Opinion ,
That Sidious was not that much more powerful than Plagueis and if he decided to fight as Bane ment those who followed his Rule of Two says too , it is likely even with undoubtedly Sidious winning that the fight would have left Sidious Scared or injured to the point the Jedi would become interested in how and why he got that way .

Not to mention the fight itself might have been such a display of power the Veil would have been broken and Yoda at the very least would be aware of the fight and been able to see who was involved .

So Cowardly , maybe not . Maybe it was just to keep things hidden as always .

(To the post about Malak and Revan)
Darth Revan did not practice the Rule of Two really as it was invented by Bane off the Idea he seen Revan and Malak .
Darth Revan only believed that Malak was the only one worthy to be his apprentice and that he only needed 1 .
It is likely if Meetra would have turned to the Darkside she would have been his second Apprentice or even his only .

Malak lost to Revan already and that's why he only seen a point of weakness in Revan having his attention averted towards the Jedi coming to kill him or capture him .
Afterwards Malak grew a ego in which was later squashed when his Master once again beat him .
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self