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5 man or 6 man party system?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
5 man or 6 man party system?

DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
07.06.2013 , 08:52 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by swtonewbie View Post
I dont think they should do it here and now, a lot more work would need to be done. On the other hand if they waited for a gear reset or level cap raise they could kinda just 'sneak' the changes in there, along with all the other changes that normally come with level cap raises.

Also, i dont believe in the solution "if queue times are too long roll a tank or healer". If the queue times are too long, then they need to be made shorter (sadly easier said then done). The non-role system seems to be a step in the right direction. WoW Pandaland expac has 'scenarios' which lets any 3 people queue up regardless of role. Personally though i didnt like the scenario system...they were all too easy, and when i heard that they were not releasing any more 5 mans and instead were releasing more scenarios that kind bummed me out. But hey! at least my dps queues were instant.
Why do you think they could "sneak" a complete re-structuring of existing flashpoints in with a gear reset (which they've never done) or a level cap raise? It's still just as much effort, just specifying the timeframe it's in.

I don't want our precious, limited development resources wasted doing that. In the time it would take them to do that, they could produce plenty of new content for us to play.

The devs are already introducing tech for the 2 new flash points coming in 2.3 that lets groups of 4 "any's" do story mode, so that wish of yours is granted. Hard mode? Still needs tank + heal + dps + dps.

If DPS are so opposed to rolling a tank or healer, maybe they should sit back and be very happy about their wait times. I mean, it's a simple trade-off. Do you want to figure out how to tank or heal (which are atrociously easy in this game, trust me, I do plenty of both) or do you want to wait? It's the player's call, totally.

Stated slightly differently, in the immortal words of Kindergarten Cop, "Stop whining!"

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
07.06.2013 , 08:58 AM | #12
Actually for existing HM55 the only change required would be to Add HP to all the mobs/bosses. That is it.

Because we are adding in a 3rd dps class. You take the average dps expected to complete an encounter by the 2 existing dps, then multiply it by .5, and add it to the current health of the boss.

You gotta remember that none of the encounters are really tuned to a specific number of people (FPs not OPs)

So by adding a dps, while you might get another CC off for trash, really all your doing is increasing the total dmg output of your group, therefore yo ujust need more to dmg.

Lets put some numbers to it.

If you tank does 1k dps, and your dps dous 3k dps each, then adding a 3rd dps just means you need to increase HP by 3kdps. So in a situation where a boss had 7mil HP, it is expected that the tank will do 1mil dmg, the other 6 mil dmg come from your 2 dps. Adding a third dps means the Boss needs to have 10mil HP.

Now if you wanted to scale other aspects, like how many healers, thats when you look at dmg output by the boss. So say the output dmg of a boss is 10kdps. The combination of the tank mitigation added to the HPS of the healer should equal roughly 10kdps. So say the tank mitigates 5k, the healer needs to then have a 5k hps.

So by adding a second healer spot, the bosses dps should be raised to 15kdmgs, so that 5k is mitigated by the tank and 10k is healed by the two healers.

One also needs to take into account that by increasing dmg, you dont increase the burst too much, but rather the sustained dmg. This is because if one attack is designed to do 20k dmg, but is only used once every few minutes, players are built to withstand it, but increasing it by 50% to make up for another healer, means 30k hits and players arnt built to withstand that.

Tuning for 2nd tanks is a bit harder as it generally requires unique mechanics that either require multiple bosses to tank, or switching tank agro due to debuffs or whatever the mechanic is. It is the only part that is difficult to rebalance on the fly.

All in all, adding another dps slot is easy, adding another healing slot is doable. Adding another tank slot and you might aswell just spend your time building ops at that point.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
07.06.2013 , 09:03 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC View Post
Why do you think they could "sneak" a complete re-structuring of existing flashpoints in with a gear reset (which they've never done) or a level cap raise? It's still just as much effort, just specifying the timeframe it's in.

I don't want our precious, limited development resources wasted doing that. In the time it would take them to do that, they could produce plenty of new content for us to play.

The devs are already introducing tech for the 2 new flash points coming in 2.3 that lets groups of 4 "any's" do story mode, so that wish of yours is granted. Hard mode? Still needs tank + heal + dps + dps.

If DPS are so opposed to rolling a tank or healer, maybe they should sit back and be very happy about their wait times. I mean, it's a simple trade-off. Do you want to figure out how to tank or heal (which are atrociously easy in this game, trust me, I do plenty of both) or do you want to wait? It's the player's call, totally.

Stated slightly differently, in the immortal words of Kindergarten Cop, "Stop whining!"
OK last things first, i'm not whining...i play almost entirely tanks, and as mentioned i havent even tried running any FPs (yet)...so this isnt an issue for me. The 4 man group concept is just one of the things about SWTOR that made me scratch my head when i first saw it. When i played LOTRO after having played WoW i though "6 people? isnt that bit too much?" but SWTOR goes the other way...i though 4 people? isnt that too little?

I'm looking for a bit more of a discussion then: reroll, stop your QQ, alt+f4, or ohh you know that little button? the one in options? the one that comes up when you hit escape? yah the one at the top? yes it says quit game, just hit that.
I'm not really a noob...

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
07.06.2013 , 09:13 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Warshades View Post
Now if you wanted to scale other aspects, like how many healers, thats when you look at dmg output by the boss. So say the output dmg of a boss is 10kdps. The combination of the tank mitigation added to the HPS of the healer should equal roughly 10kdps. So say the tank mitigates 5k, the healer needs to then have a 5k hps.

So by adding a second healer spot, the bosses dps should be raised to 15kdmgs, so that 5k is mitigated by the tank and 10k is healed by the two healers.

One also needs to take into account that by increasing dmg, you dont increase the burst too much, but rather the sustained dmg. This is because if one attack is designed to do 20k dmg, but is only used once every few minutes, players are built to withstand it, but increasing it by 50% to make up for another healer, means 30k hits and players arnt built to withstand that.
This was actually the part i was concerned about the most. Adjusting mob hp higher for an extra dps or two is easy. But then i thought, that is now 5 or 6 people total that a healer would have to heal through fights. If this game has lots of unavoidable damage then healing would have to be adjusted. Either higher healing output, a change to aoe healing mechanics or slightly lower damage so heals can keep up without running out of resource.

Thats what i meant by one thing leads to another. If healing changes cant be avoided then you end up having to change the next thing in line. I would imagine a change in healing mechanics to allow for a 5 or 6 party system will end up affecting PVP too.
I'm not really a noob...

DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
07.06.2013 , 09:35 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by swtonewbie View Post
OK last things first, i'm not whining...i play almost entirely tanks, and as mentioned i havent even tried running any FPs (yet)...so this isnt an issue for me. The 4 man group concept is just one of the things about SWTOR that made me scratch my head when i first saw it. When i played LOTRO after having played WoW i though "6 people? isnt that bit too much?" but SWTOR goes the other way...i though 4 people? isnt that too little?

I'm looking for a bit more of a discussion then: reroll, stop your QQ, alt+f4, or ohh you know that little button? the one in options? the one that comes up when you hit escape? yah the one at the top? yes it says quit game, just hit that.
OK, maybe you're not whining... but group size is what it is, it would take an inordinate amount of developer effort to change it, and DPS who are unhappy with their queue times do have the alternative to roll a tank or healer. And if they do that, they not only are helping themselves by getting faster queues, they're also helping everyone else get faster queues, too.

With my suggested approach, developers to make more content for us to enjoy instead of wasting time rehashing old content, DPS who roll as tanks and heals get faster queues, and other DPS get faster queues too. That's the rare win-win-win. What's not to love?

Warshades's Avatar


Warshades
07.06.2013 , 10:11 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by swtonewbie View Post
This was actually the part i was concerned about the most. Adjusting mob hp higher for an extra dps or two is easy. But then i thought, that is now 5 or 6 people total that a healer would have to heal through fights. If this game has lots of unavoidable damage then healing would have to be adjusted. Either higher healing output, a change to aoe healing mechanics or slightly lower damage so heals can keep up without running out of resource.

Thats what i meant by one thing leads to another. If healing changes cant be avoided then you end up having to change the next thing in line. I would imagine a change in healing mechanics to allow for a 5 or 6 party system will end up affecting PVP too.
Your overcomplicating things. I cant think of a single lvl55HM boss that mechanics (if done correctly) would make it harder to heal a 5 person group over a 4 person group. Now up that to 6 people and things change a bit because your makeup isnt going to usually be ideal for 1 tank 1 healer and 4 dps. Usually with 6 you go 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 off healer/dps, and 3 full dps.

I'd like to see 5 mans, I dont know so much about 6 mans, too close to just going full 8 man ops.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

Hockaday's Avatar


Hockaday
07.06.2013 , 10:19 AM | #17
No. The ideal party size is 4, as with original MMO system. Now that we only have three archetypes, it should more really be 3. 4 is plenty, it's all we need.
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jorill's Avatar


jorill
07.06.2013 , 10:33 AM | #18
If you change the core group to 5 then thats going to change the ops sizes from 8 to 10 as well. They arent going to make ops and flashpoints different in that regard. In regards to 6 if you arent going to have a support class then there is no reason to go past 5.

Pubsam's Avatar


Pubsam
07.06.2013 , 11:05 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Warshades View Post
Your overcomplicating things. I cant think of a single lvl55HM boss that mechanics (if done correctly) would make it harder to heal a 5 person group over a 4 person group. Now up that to 6 people and things change a bit because your makeup isnt going to usually be ideal for 1 tank 1 healer and 4 dps. Usually with 6 you go 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 off healer/dps, and 3 full dps.

I'd like to see 5 mans, I dont know so much about 6 mans, too close to just going full 8 man ops.
Operative/Scoundrel's AOE heal is capped at 4 people. I think the same is true as well for the Merc/Commando. The easiest fix would just be to increase the cap, but unless Ops were also bumped up to 10 and 20 mans, then the damage output in Ops would need to adjusted since Operatives and Mercs just got buffed essentially. There would most definitely be some healing/damage rebalancing going on.

Personally I don't mind the group size too much, pretty irrelevant to me. I'm betting BW thought the small size was very casual friendly, since this was back before there was an LFG. LFG is what really makes the group size seem too small for the DPS population. If all groups were still forming in guilds/general chat and they were willing to do the work to form them, they'd likely find a set up pretty quick.
Time for a nap.

CKHelseth's Avatar


CKHelseth
07.06.2013 , 11:26 AM | #20
I am happy with the four man groups. It wouldn't fix the problem of there not being enough tanks or healers in game. Besides it will just lead to people crying for more DPS in ops groups, something that I would probably quit the game over given that my guild is a small friends and family type. Not interested in having to recruit just to run content.
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