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5 man or 6 man party system?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
5 man or 6 man party system?

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
07.06.2013 , 06:32 AM | #1
Hey everybody,

I've been thinking about this and i wanted to get everyones opinion on it. I've heard from a lot of people that queue times for dps in this game are pretty bad. I havent done any FPs in SWTOR yet, but i've done lots of 5 mans in WoW (mainly as a tank, but also on some of my DPS).

But anyways what do you guys think about going to a 5 man system or maybe even a 6 man grouping system (like in LOTRO)? Would the benefit of lower queue times for dps be worth the change? would if even be affected? should they do it now or wait for the next content push or level cap raise?

Current +2 and +4 heroics can be retuned or left alone, w/e. But the real reason for me suggesting it be done is for the FPs. I'm trying to think of all the changes and it seems like 1 change would lead to other which would lead to others. I know you cant simply add 2 player and everything will be good. Mobs and loot drops will have to be adjusted. Below are just some of the things i can think of that may be affected. Feel free to add your own.

-5 or 6 man party
-increase loot drops or modify loot system
-increase mob hitpoints
-increase damage taken by party?
-increase healer output and/or healer regeneration
-increase player hitpoints?
-pvp unbalanced due to increased healer output and bigger healthpool?
-add buff that increases player damage in pvp environments XX.X% to counteract increased healer output
-adjust OP's to 18/20/24/25 man group
-adjust OP mobs
- ....
-create time machine
-go back in time to when SWTOR was in the planning phase
-tell developers to go with a 5 or 6 man party system instead

but anyways what do you guys think?
I'm not really a noob...

LightForse's Avatar


LightForse
07.06.2013 , 07:15 AM | #2
I agree...worst idea having a 4 man grp. By adding another spot for dps would be all positives.

Icebergy's Avatar


Icebergy
07.06.2013 , 07:17 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by LightForse View Post
I agree...worst idea having a 4 man grp. By adding another spot for dps would be all positives.
Except that then the tanks and healers would have to deal with another DPS, which is the worst part of queuing for randoms and why we never do it.
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yindaka's Avatar


yindaka
07.06.2013 , 07:25 AM | #4
To be honest, I find this would take more work for no real benefit.

I can see the advantage for dps classes as one extra means dps'ers will have to wait less time on a queue. But everything has been scaled down to groups of 4 people. Increasing this would require a whole change of everything. Ok, i'm not a programmer or anything so I have no idea how much work actually needs to be invested in such an endeavour.

I have a dps, it's a long wait indeed but that's where the social bit of the game comes in a bit. It's not about just sitting and waiting for the queue but contacting people, using friends and guilds and maybe even that random stranger you meet to form up a 4 man group and go on a flashpoint, heroic, operation, etc...

Also, they are testing out a neutral-role queue on the PTS so lets first see how that goes. If they can manage to introduce a neutral role queue up then no dps will be left behind anymore (except maybe with being the last 3 in the queue, tough luck then )

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
07.06.2013 , 07:47 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by yindaka View Post
To be honest, I find this would take more work for no real benefit.

I can see the advantage for dps classes as one extra means dps'ers will have to wait less time on a queue. But everything has been scaled down to groups of 4 people. Increasing this would require a whole change of everything. Ok, i'm not a programmer or anything so I have no idea how much work actually needs to be invested in such an endeavour.

I have a dps, it's a long wait indeed but that's where the social bit of the game comes in a bit. It's not about just sitting and waiting for the queue but contacting people, using friends and guilds and maybe even that random stranger you meet to form up a 4 man group and go on a flashpoint, heroic, operation, etc...

Also, they are testing out a neutral-role queue on the PTS so lets first see how that goes. If they can manage to introduce a neutral role queue up then no dps will be left behind anymore (except maybe with being the last 3 in the queue, tough luck then )
Thats why i suggested it be done during a content release where they raise our level cap again. A lot of things will get re-adjusted when the cap gets raised...talents, abilities, pvp, pve all have to be rebalanced if we were to go from 55 to 60. In addition they would just have to rebalance for the new group size. If they manage to do it all right, then it should hardly be noticeable. When you gain 5 levels all you know is you hit harder, you heal more, and you have more hp. Would you really notice if your stats were retuned to 5-6 mans if we went to 60?

Look at how much WoW stats have change over the years. I dont think all of the changes were good a idea, but health pools were in the single thousands in vanilla, then 10-24k for TBC, Wrath i think it went to 33k, then 80-100k, now with Pandas you have dps sitting at 300-400k health pools with tanks at 500-600k. The numbers might be off, but the point is look at how the numbers increase with each expac. Not to mention in vanilla they were changing instance sizes and whatnot in the middle of vanilla. Just from what i've heard, one of the instances used to be 15 man (UBRS) but then it got retuned to 10 man. I was only there for the 10man, so i cant verify the 15 man part. but there was a change during vanilla that affected group sizes for the dungeons (WoWs equivalent of an FP). But i do know that there were also raids, meant for 20 man groups and 40 man groups. In TBC they went down to 10 man and 25 mans. And also in Pandaland they've been doing scenarios which dont require specific roles. Their reasons for going from 20/40 to 10/25 may have been different. But i was just using all the above examples to show that is has been done before.
I'm not really a noob...

DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
07.06.2013 , 07:49 AM | #6
4 man is fine.

5-6 man would force them to rebalance all the content. That takes a ton of time. Time during which they could be making new content instead.

If DPS are pained by long queues, perhaps they should take matters into their own hands and roll & learn how to tank or heal. I know it's the obvious answer but it's really the best solution.

Heck, that would even make them better DPS!
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Suromir's Avatar


Suromir
07.06.2013 , 07:54 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC View Post
4 man is fine.

5-6 man would force them to rebalance all the content. That takes a ton of time. Time during which they could be making new content instead.

If DPS are pained by long queues, perhaps they should take matters into their own hands and roll & learn how to tank or heal. I know it's the obvious answer but it's really the best solution.

Heck, that would even make them better DPS!
this.

if you don't like long queue times as a DPS..then make a healer or tank. simple as that. Every brainless person can DerPS (yes I mainly DPS..but I do have tank and heal characters too)...

they have to wait so long because most DPS players are lazy and just want to mash buttons and kill stuff..so there is a TON of them around.

increasing the group size really wouldn't alleviate this much, if at all...just means more DerPS would be around

again..if you want shorter queue times...roll a tank and/or healer. If you choose to DPS and take the brainless route (which again, is what I mainly do so I'm talking about myself as much as anyone else) then deal with the queue times

yindaka's Avatar


yindaka
07.06.2013 , 07:57 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by swtonewbie View Post
Thats why i suggested it be done during a content release where they raise our level cap again. A lot of things will get re-adjusted when the cap gets raised...talents, abilities, pvp, pve all have to be rebalanced if we were to go from 55 to 60. In addition they would just have to rebalance for the new group size. If they manage to do it all right, then it should hardly be noticeable. When you gain 5 levels all you know is you hit harder, you heal more, and you have more hp. Would you really notice if your stats were retuned to 5-6 mans if we went to 60?

Look at how much WoW stats have change over the years. I dont think all of the changes were good a idea, but health pools were in the single thousands in vanilla, then 10-24k for TBC, Wrath i think it went to 33k, then 80-100k, now with Pandas you have dps sitting at 300-400k health pools with tanks at 500-600k. The numbers might be off, but the point is look at how the numbers increase with each expac. Not to mention in vanilla they were changing instance sizes and whatnot in the middle of vanilla. Just from what i've heard, one of the instances used to be 15 man (UBRS) but then it got retuned to 10 man. I was only there for the 10man, so i cant verify the 15 man part. but there was a change during vanilla that affected group sizes for the dungeons (WoWs equivalent of an FP). But i do know that there were also raids, meant for 20 man groups and 40 man groups. In TBC they went down to 10 man and 25 mans. And also in Pandaland they've been doing scenarios which dont require specific roles. Their reasons for going from 20/40 to 10/25 may have been different. But i was just using all the above examples to show that is has been done before.
It might have been done before for reasons we don't know specifically but the question remains: Is it worth doing it here?

You mentioned scenario's in WoW, that I would like to see here. I've played WAR when it was released and I loved the Public Quests where everyone can just jump in and join the fight and where your loot was awarded through a roll system but with a bonus depending on how much effort you put in defeating the Public Quest. I'd love to see such a thing come to TOR, either in the form of open Public Quests or like WoW with scenario's for which you queue up, and for all I care they may change the required number of people to 5/10/20/...

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
07.06.2013 , 08:15 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthTHC View Post
4 man is fine.

5-6 man would force them to rebalance all the content. That takes a ton of time. Time during which they could be making new content instead.

If DPS are pained by long queues, perhaps they should take matters into their own hands and roll & learn how to tank or heal. I know it's the obvious answer but it's really the best solution.

Heck, that would even make them better DPS!
I dont think they should do it here and now, a lot more work would need to be done. On the other hand if they waited for a gear reset or level cap raise they could kinda just 'sneak' the changes in there, along with all the other changes that normally come with level cap raises.

Also, i dont believe in the solution "if queue times are too long roll a tank or healer". If the queue times are too long, then they need to be made shorter (sadly easier said then done). The non-role system seems to be a step in the right direction. WoW Pandaland expac has 'scenarios' which lets any 3 people queue up regardless of role. Personally though i didnt like the scenario system...they were all too easy, and when i heard that they were not releasing any more 5 mans and instead were releasing more scenarios that kind bummed me out. But hey! at least my dps queues were instant.
I'm not really a noob...

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
07.06.2013 , 08:21 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by yindaka View Post
It might have been done before for reasons we don't know specifically but the question remains: Is it worth doing it here?

You mentioned scenario's in WoW, that I would like to see here. I've played WAR when it was released and I loved the Public Quests where everyone can just jump in and join the fight and where your loot was awarded through a roll system but with a bonus depending on how much effort you put in defeating the Public Quest. I'd love to see such a thing come to TOR, either in the form of open Public Quests or like WoW with scenario's for which you queue up, and for all I care they may change the required number of people to 5/10/20/...
The scenarios i mentioned actually sound like the 'non-role' system you mentioned in the PTS.

It's an instanced event meant for 3 people, roles dont matter. A lot of the events are actually kinda fun and interactive, but i found them to be a bit too easy. I guess they try to offset the 'easy' part by having all the fun stuff you can do inside of it. It's not a simple dungeon run, kill this pack, CC this, boss time, collect loot. It's hard to describe, but pretty much youtube 'WoW scenarios' if you want to see what it looks like
I'm not really a noob...