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idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
06.16.2013 , 05:08 PM | #1
I have a strong suggestion, you who are wise enough to come to the forums seeking help.

Back at launch, we didn't ask others to play for us on anything. We worked through problems on our own, or collaborated on strategies in general chat. We did not ask for someone to fight for us, but rather how to improve. As a result, the players at launch are some of the top in the game now. Coincidence? Not a chance.

Critical thinking is the primary reason these players are now where they are. So when you need help on a quest, I recommend not asking for someone to help you on it or to do it for you, but to give you advice. How to overcome the mechanics, how to play your class better, how to improve your stats.

Many of the new players of the game do not think. They don't work through these problems. As a result, a lot of new players ask for help on solo quests. This is not good. It pretty much says 'I give up, someone do it for me'. Bioware, 99.9999% of the time, is not going to release an unbeatable fight. If you're a new player, it's a pretty good bet that someone before you has beaten the fight. That means that something you're doing is wrong. Instead of striving to fix it, you ask someone to beat the fight for you, or with you. This is a problem. This logic seems overly simple yet is true: if you do not seek to improve, you will not improve.

Asking for someone to fight for you or with you shows that you do not care enough to fix the problem. Ever wonder why most group finder groups don't finish without a wipe? Ever wonder why most guilds when they are missing an operations team member or two will rather not run at all than pick someone from general chat? The community as a whole is fairly unskilled in a relatively easy game.

There's one way to fix this, and one way only. Exercise critical thinking. Ask how to beat a boss, not for someone else to do it for you. This is how it was at launch. Those players are now some of the best. Follow in their footsteps, and someday you will be too.
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Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Negative language gets you disqualified? Oh I'm sorry, please wait while I contact your local 'safe space'

swtonewbie's Avatar


swtonewbie
06.16.2013 , 06:37 PM | #2
I follow the same philosophy when i'm at work and it carrys over into how i play and do my hobbies. If i dont know the answer to the problem i figure out how to find the answer, i dont ask someone what the answer is. Even when i was at work training people...i didnt simply tell them how to do the job. I showed them how to do something, but i also explained how they get there.

But regarding your OP? We arent talking about a job, we are talking about a game. I do agree with what you said that people need to think instead of asking for handouts or carrys. But i only try to convince people i know, guildies or i will speak up when people saying content X needs to be nerfed cause they cant do it (even though i could). I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince some random person, or random people browsing the forums, on how i think they should play. I dont do it because they are allowed to play however they want, just like i am allowed to play how i want. If they are a rocket scientist or heart surgeon during the day, but when playing a game they want to turn their brain off thats fine with me. But once their gameplay starts to affect mine, that is when i'll speak up. Until then, they can derp it up as much as they want and i'll keep steamrolling stuff.

EDIT: another reason i dont bother trying to tell other people to 'think' is simply because they dont care. Why would i want to waste my time with somebody like that? They dont care enough to improve their own gameplay, they likely arent going to care enough about what advice i have for them. Unless someone shows first they they are willing to listen to suggestions in which case i will help them out. Otherwise i will just assume that the person is just like most others and that they dont like being told what to do or what to think.
I'm not really a noob...

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
06.16.2013 , 07:01 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
I have a strong suggestion, you who are wise enough to come to the forums seeking help.

Back at launch, we didn't ask others to play for us on anything. We worked through problems on our own, or collaborated on strategies in general chat. We did not ask for someone to fight for us, but rather how to improve. As a result, the players at launch are some of the top in the game now. Coincidence? Not a chance.
Yeah, I've heard of those days. A friend of mine played at launch. She said it took her hours to kill one boss. And if you think that's fun, sure, feel free to do it. I know people who want to get things like that themselves, maybe to proof that they can.

Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Critical thinking is the primary reason these players are now where they are. So when you need help on a quest, I recommend not asking for someone to help you on it or to do it for you, but to give you advice. How to overcome the mechanics, how to play your class better, how to improve your stats.
I actually had some troubles a few months ago, with the Archon. I asked tips for it in general chat for 3 times and made a thread to the forums as well. What I got was either "l2p"-answers, or I was told to do something I had done since try number one.
The community seem to have changed since launch, then. You don't seem to get that useful advises anymore, especially not from general chat.


Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Many of the new players of the game do not think. They don't work through these problems. As a result, a lot of new players ask for help on solo quests. This is not good. It pretty much says 'I give up, someone do it for me'. Bioware, 99.9999% of the time, is not going to release an unbeatable fight. If you're a new player, it's a pretty good bet that someone before you has beaten the fight. That means that something you're doing is wrong. Instead of striving to fix it, you ask someone to beat the fight for you, or with you. This is a problem. This logic seems overly simple yet is true: if you do not seek to improve, you will not improve.
Yes, there is something wrong. However, there might be several things that can be wrong, and not all of them are related to the skill of the player. Person failing the fight might actually be better at playing his character than the person who didn't fail. If a guy who knows all his abilities and knows how to use them is underleveled, undergeared, is using dps companion with dps character, haven't geared his companion etc etc etc, he might fail the fight, while overleveled, overgeared tank with a overgeared healer companion might succeed in it by spamming his basic attack. Be overleveled and overgeared enough, and everything will be easy.

Also, if you can pinpoint the problem to something like undergeared, underleveled, undergeared companion etc, there really isn't much to learn after you realize it. If the problem seems to be that your healer companion just can't keep you up long enough thanks to horrible gear, it saves some money to ask a friend to heal you through the fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Asking for someone to fight for you or with you shows that you do not care enough to fix the problem.
Yeah, this is true. Some people just want to see how the story goes, instead of dying over and over again. It's frustrating, and it's not fun, and some people just play this game (or any game) to have fun, not to be good at it.


Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Ever wonder why most group finder groups don't finish without a wipe?
Mine do. Though I do admit I do more sms than hms. With hms, it's usually so that either the group wipes 0 times or the group wipes 20 times.

Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Ever wonder why most guilds when they are missing an operations team member or two will rather not run at all than pick someone from general chat? The community as a whole is fairly unskilled in a relatively easy game.
Tbh, I've never found this to be somehow especially easy game, but sure, it's not impossible. The problem is, if they are a little unskilled and happy that way, why should they change? So your guild could invite them to do a hm ops with you, even though they might not have any interest in doing that?

Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
There's one way to fix this, and one way only. Exercise critical thinking. Ask how to beat a boss, not for someone else to do it for you. This is how it was at launch. Those players are now some of the best. Follow in their footsteps, and someday you will be too.
The last 3 sentences sum up the whole thread, imo. If you want to be as good as the greatest, no, don't take shortcuts. If you just want the boss fight to over after dying for hours, ask an experienced friend to help you with it. Usually that experienced friend can see what you are doing wrong and tell it to you after you have gotten the boss down, so you might not have that problem next time.

Anyway, imo is not wrong to ask for help, but the person helping could always think what kind of help is actually helpful. If you go there with an overleveled dps and burn down the boss in 5 seconds, it doesn't help anyone. I usually bring a tank or a healer and just keep the boss attacking me/just heal the person needing help, without actually "killing" the boss for him/her. This lets me to monitor how he/she is handling the boss, and after the fight I can tell him/her what he/she should do differently in the future.
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JacksonMo's Avatar


JacksonMo
06.16.2013 , 08:01 PM | #4
I think with F2P we had a lot more kids join up. My theory being that grownups with jobs will tend to be more thoughtful and deliberate in their approach. Try, try and try again.
This theory goes back several years, and has proven true quite often. You can even tell in chat whether you are dealing with an adult or a kid. But at any rate, I say try to be helpful.
If you like this game, as I do, it's in our best interest to help guide newbies through the tough parts and not be too quick to yell "L2P" when someone asks a newbie question.

SandsOfArrakis's Avatar


SandsOfArrakis
06.17.2013 , 12:25 AM | #5
I've been questing on Hoth this weekend with my Operative. A Marauder asked in general chat to help with a quest. He was level 40 and kept on dying on a level 38 quest. Even when using Quinn.

So I've helped him out. But noticed right away that all he did was using his basic attacks. He was running around with full fury without using it. Didn't use his defensive cooldowns. Just jumped into a group and went Darth Vader mode. That works when your on the first planet in the game, but not later on. So I've ended up teaching him to use more then just his basic abilities. How to use his Berserk and Predation skills. And also to use stuff like Saber Ward and his interrupts.

Got a whisper from him later on. He thanked me. Things had gotten much easier for him.

I've been playing since launch. With a few months break before the Hutt expansion. I've had to learn everything the hard way. But I'm not the kind of person to go around and tell others to L2P. I prefer to teach when possible. Not everything of course, but enough to get them on their way. And let them discover the rest for themselves.
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idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
06.17.2013 , 12:45 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by JacksonMo View Post
I think with F2P we had a lot more kids join up. My theory being that grownups with jobs will tend to be more thoughtful and deliberate in their approach. Try, try and try again.
This theory goes back several years, and has proven true quite often. You can even tell in chat whether you are dealing with an adult or a kid. But at any rate, I say try to be helpful.
If you like this game, as I do, it's in our best interest to help guide newbies through the tough parts and not be too quick to yell "L2P" when someone asks a newbie question.
Quote: Originally Posted by SandsOfArrakis View Post
I've been questing on Hoth this weekend with my Operative. A Marauder asked in general chat to help with a quest. He was level 40 and kept on dying on a level 38 quest. Even when using Quinn.

So I've helped him out. But noticed right away that all he did was using his basic attacks. He was running around with full fury without using it. Didn't use his defensive cooldowns. Just jumped into a group and went Darth Vader mode. That works when your on the first planet in the game, but not later on. So I've ended up teaching him to use more then just his basic abilities. How to use his Berserk and Predation skills. And also to use stuff like Saber Ward and his interrupts.

Got a whisper from him later on. He thanked me. Things had gotten much easier for him.

I've been playing since launch. With a few months break before the Hutt expansion. I've had to learn everything the hard way. But I'm not the kind of person to go around and tell others to L2P. I prefer to teach when possible. Not everything of course, but enough to get them on their way. And let them discover the rest for themselves.
Both along the same lines. Double-agree. The 'L2P' thing definitely doesn't help anyone. One of the main things to remember, though, is that the forums aren't the same as ingame. The rules aren't the same. The community isn't the same. Ingame people are going to be ***holes no matter what you do or say. I blame F2P (as JacksonMo touched on. Not every F2Per is a lazy whining kid, but the population of those increased tenfold with the launch of F2P). On the forums it's different. If you're a jerk, you're going to get called on it. Thus, of all the places to ask legit questions, this is it. You could ask in this thread I suppose but to be honest I'd make your own thread or post in a relevant thread (for fine-tuning DPS, probably your server's top dps parse thread, etc). If you ask how to beat a fight and someone tells you to L2P know that they're the problem, not you.
PRE-ORDER ACCOUNT LEGACY LEVEL 50 LEVEL +55s: 24
ETERNAL WARRIOR CHEEVO POINTS: +31,000
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Negative language gets you disqualified? Oh I'm sorry, please wait while I contact your local 'safe space'

JPryde's Avatar


JPryde
06.17.2013 , 05:14 AM | #7
The irony is, that most people, who will ever read this thread, do not need to read this thread
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
06.17.2013 , 07:34 AM | #8
I only give hints regarding quests.

As a story player, I often even refuse to help within other class quests.

Fleet is a little different case.
There I at least say in which Sector a thing can be found.

Personally, this "lack of thinking" is to me just a symptome of something going on in terms of society. Think big.
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I have no good reputation.
I never will.
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ImmortalLowlife's Avatar


ImmortalLowlife
06.17.2013 , 08:59 AM | #9
Op what u seem to forget, is that of those who played at launch, prob 95% was already experienced at playing mmo's & therefore had a general idea of what they were doing. But u have a lot of ppl (myself included) who'd never played any mmo before swtor. I remember during the beta I couldn't get anyone to group with me because I was a "noob", & could barely get a straight answer to a question without getting a smart azz answer (like l2p or figure it out) It was because of this I didn't sub at launch. I'd been told that MMO's encouraged teamwork & helping ppl out, but all I saw was elitism & arrogance. It was like I was in college taking trig for the first time...I had no idea what I was doing, but couldn't get any help. I'm a console gamer mainly & when I play online on consoles its with friends & we help each other. The egotism I encountered (& still see) is amazing. That being said, if someone ask a question in gen chat, if I know the answer I'll tell em. If they ask for help, I'll help em & at the same time give em advice & tips on making their playing easier & more fun. I found a guild that thinks like I do, & I've definitely grown as a player since I joined. Maybe if more ppl adopted a similar attitude then you'd have a lot more players who were good in their roles & thus you'd have fewer wipes.

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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
06.17.2013 , 09:56 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by ImmortalLowlife View Post
Op what u seem to forget, is that of those who played at launch, prob 95% was already experienced at playing mmo's & therefore had a general idea of what they were doing.
I fear that SWTOR was

Designed For Veterans By Veterans

And Not For Newbies !!!1111eleven

to put it rather cynically.


And it's of course ALWAYS the Veterans who QQ by ranting that "everything has become sooooo easy !!!111eleven"
I'm a bad player.
I have no good reputation.
I never will.
Only bad reputation.