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Are tanks worth playing in PVP without dedicated healers?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Are tanks worth playing in PVP without dedicated healers?

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
06.17.2013 , 11:17 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Nkya View Post
Guarding a node? how so? If a decent DPS comes alone to take it, the tank will not be able to resist long. Of course they can call for incoming, but it's a bit random in a PUG. Another DPS has a chance in a DPS duel.
Look, if you're dying 1 on 1 with a tank in pvp, most of the time you are doing something wrong or are grossly undergeared.

And even if that were the case, the point of guarding is not "kill all opposition". It's "call for help and delay capture for as long as you can". Tanks can usually do that better than dps, though stealthers have the upper hand there regardless of spec, normally.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

Maelael's Avatar


Maelael
06.17.2013 , 01:39 PM | #12
Short answer: No.

Long Answer: Just respec to DD if there aren't any healers. Really, in a no heal vs heal situation, you're at an extreme loss and are only going to win if your opponents bad or your team is really really good. Just go for medals and get the most out of your loss.

Example: For juggs, Vengance is good for damage, but you'll score overall better as a smasher in def form while guarding people. In a team with a smart healer, Immortal is the way to go if the DDs can work together too. In a team with ??? Healer, but where the DD falls short, Vengance is amazing. In a team with crap players and/or no healer, Defensive form Smasher works really well (Vengance you get torn apart too fast for the damage output you do while tank geared).

Furthermore, even if you have healers - it doesn't mean they know to heal you. It's also not always the best choice to guard only them. Too many situations you're better off guarding the dd, while both of you take care of peeling for the healer and working on objectives. Guard switching is learned and instinctive skill. A good healer who knows when to heal the tank and when to heal the DD(s) is rough to find in a PUG.

Tank in PvP is a niche that most don't understand how to work with, but those that do (and the tank knows how/when to do things too) you can pull off amazing 2-3 vs 2-7 defends, stalls, feints, baits, and ganks. Pretty decent learning curve too, took me a while to know when to do certain combos/moves and when to wait on AOE taunt (rare), when to blow your defensives, and etc.

Nkya's Avatar


Nkya
06.17.2013 , 10:39 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
Look, if you're dying 1 on 1 with a tank in pvp, most of the time you are doing something wrong or are grossly undergeared.

And even if that were the case, the point of guarding is not "kill all opposition". It's "call for help and delay capture for as long as you can". Tanks can usually do that better than dps, though stealthers have the upper hand there regardless of spec, normally.
Tanks don't do much damage, you know, and without doing damage you've no way to kill the opponents. If tanks would kill DPS in duels, we'll see armies of tanks all over the place. Tanks have a support role in group fights and that don't work going alone. Call for help sometimes don't work. Sounds more logical to leave someone having a chance to save the point when it didn't work.

Heathenblood's Avatar


Heathenblood
06.18.2013 , 12:33 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Nkya View Post
Tanks don't do much damage, you know, and without doing damage you've no way to kill the opponents. If tanks would kill DPS in duels, we'll see armies of tanks all over the place. Tanks have a support role in group fights and that don't work going alone. Call for help sometimes don't work. Sounds more logical to leave someone having a chance to save the point when it didn't work.


I going strictly off assassin tanks because that's what I play. But honestly I as a full tank generally always win 1v1 against a dps. You hit less but you survive so long that you just chug away at them till they die, and 2v1 I usually can't kill both( have before several times though) but I can generally hold my position for a very long time. More than enough time for reinforcements to arrive, and in a pug if they don't come who cares that's there own fault. Yes a really good dpser can Kill me 1v1 but its very rare it happens and when it does I last long enough by the time I die someone comes and finishes them off before they can cap, so my job was successful since I held position long enough so that they couldn't cap.
-Heathenblood

GeckoOBac's Avatar


GeckoOBac
06.18.2013 , 08:02 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Heathenblood View Post
I going strictly off assassin tanks because that's what I play. But honestly I as a full tank generally always win 1v1 against a dps. You hit less but you survive so long that you just chug away at them till they die, and 2v1 I usually can't kill both( have before several times though) but I can generally hold my position for a very long time. More than enough time for reinforcements to arrive, and in a pug if they don't come who cares that's there own fault. Yes a really good dpser can Kill me 1v1 but its very rare it happens and when it does I last long enough by the time I die someone comes and finishes them off before they can cap, so my job was successful since I held position long enough so that they couldn't cap.
This. And tank dps is not as low as you might suspect, if played properly.
Light Knights: Gecko - Syed - Vor'sann - Joya
Nightmare's Legion: Anhess - Avilus - Wittard - Schroedinger

Heathenblood's Avatar


Heathenblood
06.18.2013 , 03:25 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by GeckoOBac View Post
This. And tank dps is not as low as you might suspect, if played properly.
Yeah darkness does well dps you get the maul almost after every thrash at the same cost as a thrash face to face. Full harness darkness hits pretty good too. Energized shocks with recklessness especially if the 2nd shock hits too . Pluss there's still assassinate which hits great still. I mean if course it's less dps than on a dummy or something but that doesn't matter in pvp if you are smarter you'll win more than lose.
-Heathenblood

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
06.18.2013 , 04:26 PM | #17
Just by considering stats, in the case of melee hits, a Guardian Tank would deal around 30% less damage to a Vigilance Guardian than a Vigilance Guardian would to another Vigiliance Guardian. The loss experienced by a Vigilance Guardian when attacking the Defense Guardian will be quite as much : around 30%.

I took two specs of the same AC, because as they mostly use the same abilities, just comparing stats is pretty significant of respective performances against each other. It means when they use the same abilities (Knight/Guardian baseline abilities), and attack each other, the DPS of both would approximately equal.

It also means that in 1vs1, when strictly considering melee hits in common, the tank is supposed to win, mainly thanks to the extra HP he has. But in group fight, in the same situation, the tank relieves the ennemy healer for around the same amount from needed healing that he relieves his own healer.

In the end, this also means that unless he is in a situation where the tank is attacked while guarding someone attacked, or not being attacked but guarding someone by at least 3 ennemies, or him-self attacked by multiple ennemies, the tank can't bring more to his team than to his ennemies. You'll notice that either these situation shouldn't occur most of the time (tank being attacked) or are especially rare and short opportunities considering the pace of the game (3-man focus is rare considering the ennemies aren't supposed have so many DPSers, and often lead to fast death leaving few time to put the guard on the unfortunate guy)

If the tank is in a situation where he is attacked by only one person, or is only damaged by two ennemies through guard, he brings nothing. If unfortunately, you're only damaged by one ennemy through guard, then you help more your ennemies than your team.

Remind you that this only about melee hits. As soon as we speak about Force damage, the balance start to go slightly in favor of the DPSers, and as soon as it's elemental/internal, the tank is completely obsolete. (Compared to a Vigilence Guardian, Defense has a better survivabilty of only ~6% against Elemental/Internal)

Also note that this is just by considering stats from gear, stance, and passive increases from specs, and that defense spec is filled with passive increase, while Vigilance is filled with unmeasurable increases such as CD shortening, DoT procs, CD resetting, brand new big-hitters, auto-crit, better Focus generation and if added to the fact that the spec has a non-trivial amount of Force and Elemental damage, then it's so that when speaking about a 1vs1 between the Defense and Vigilance guardians, the victory of the Defense one is far from assured. In order to not being pessimistic, I'd say it may tend to a draw. People would say that their 1vs1 performances don't matter, and so all of thisis a BS, but their group performance is directly dependent of their 1vs1 performance considering how guards work and how ennemies are supposed to act.

While this comparison is a bit moot if we're speaking about other classes or specs, because it will change, it will not change so much since the mechanics are supposed to be the same, and the stats pretty similar. Most of the differences would come from class differences rather than spec difference. But as I took a DPS spec that is not
especially dedicated to tank-killing (the strong point of the spec is saber attacks), there is nothing good to expect from theorycrafting comparing a tank to a Sorc or a PT.

As long as tanks are balanced this way, you can't expect them to have a significant importance on the battlefield. They're good at protecting someone from burst, but if there is no healer to take care of the delay you bought to your protegee, your presence means nearly nothing.