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Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned


xZarquon's Avatar


xZarquon
06.12.2013 , 02:55 PM | #21
Based on the streams it seems the enrage timer is 7 minutes (420 seconds) in 8 man nightmare.

HP is as follows (for 8-man):
Heirad: 1309032
Ciphas: 1716816
Kelsara: 1394913
Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
06.12.2013 , 02:58 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by xZarquon View Post
Based on the streams it seems the enrage timer is 7 minutes (420 seconds) in 8 man nightmare.

HP is as follows (for 8-man):
Heirad: 1309032
Ciphas: 1716816
Kelsara: 1394913
Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535
o-o

That's roughly 1.4* million more than pts. I think I found the issue here.

bigheadbrandon's Avatar


bigheadbrandon
06.12.2013 , 02:59 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
o-o

That's roughly 1.7 million more than pts. I think I found the issue here.
bioware intends for us to grind bracer tokens for a few weeks so all the dps has 75 mods

EpicEdge's Avatar


EpicEdge
06.12.2013 , 03:03 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).
I've been watching streams at work and the numbers for what I've seem to be as follows:

Heirad: 1309072
Ciphas: 1716816
Kel'sara: 1394913

Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47538
Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535
Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535

410 Second Enrage

12 Second Ciphas shield break

All of the numbers were from the OP's video.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.12.2013 , 03:05 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by xZarquon View Post
Based on the streams it seems the enrage timer is 7 minutes (420 seconds) in 8 man nightmare.

HP is as follows (for 8-man):
Heirad: 1309032
Ciphas: 1716816
Kelsara: 1394913
Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535
1309032 + 1716816 + 1394913 + (47535 * 2 * 3) = 4705971

Note that I'm doubling the Legionaire to represent the AoE DPS loss due to the need to kill the remainder of the adds. I'm assuming you have enough AoE DPS that you don't need to single-target them down.

11204.692857143 DPS required

Tanks: 1.2k each
Healers: 0k each
DPS: 2202

Estimated Ciphas bubble delay: 12 seconds. Accounting for this delay:

420 - 24 = 396

11883.765151515 DPS required

DPS: 2371

This is not mathematically impossible.

I think what guilds are seeing right now is multi-fold. First, tanks are probably not pulling their weight. Second, DPS are unfamiliar with the NiM mechanics and psyching themselves out a bit, and thus losing a LOT of DPS due to mechanics. The numbers that people are posting (e.g. 2.6k DPS) are net over the whole fight and probably include a lot of incidental AoE on bosses that heal back up. The numbers I posted above are effective DPS, which means that you don't get to count incidental AoE on the other bosses toward your effective number.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

bigheadbrandon's Avatar


bigheadbrandon
06.12.2013 , 03:07 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
1309032 + 1716816 + 1394913 + (47535 * 2 * 3) = 4705971

Note that I'm doubling the Legionaire to represent the AoE DPS loss due to the need to kill the remainder of the adds. I'm assuming you have enough AoE DPS that you don't need to single-target them down.

11204.692857143 DPS required

Tanks: 1.2k each
Healers: 0k each
DPS: 2202

Estimated Ciphas bubble delay: 12 seconds. Accounting for this delay:

420 - 24 = 396

11883.765151515 DPS required

DPS: 2371

This is not mathematically impossible.
you cant factor in tank dps in this fight, you've done it before right?

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
06.12.2013 , 03:07 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).

Personally, I'm really glad the enrage timer is hard. Everyone was complaining about trivial DPS checks on the PTS, so it's good to see things have been retuned. Whether or not it is truly mathematically over-tuned is still up in the air since we haven't seen numbers.

Something to consider: with a Resolve stim and DPS relics, I can get almost 1.2k DPS on my tank on Styrak. I'm almost positive I can get quite a bit more on the Dread Guard as the fight is more static and has fewer debuffs. 40% of Kel'sara really isn't that much, relatively speaking (even assuming even HP levels, 40% is equivalent to enraging at 13% on a normal boss). You may be able to eke out that much just by having your healers drop Affliction once every so often and your tanks pull more damage.
There is a HUGE difference between what you are saying and what reality is. You're not taking fight mechanics into consideration and you're throwing in the "60% of all internet statistics are made up".

Kelsara wasn't at 40%, she was at 55% when the last man died and they reset. Moot point anyways. You cannot simply divide by 3 bosses to get the correct enrage % because the bosses both heal to full when they die, completely negating tank DPS on anything other than Kelsara, as well as the shield phases during Heirad. None of that DPS counts for anything, meaning it's a lot more than your 13%. Add in the Legionnaire's and you get even more required DPS. You had all of that in your post and you ignored it in your gross calculations.

Again, tank DPS doesn't matter at all in this fight until you get to Kelsara, and at that point it's effectively halved because only one tank can be attacking her at a given time. If you were to stack the tanks on Heirad and hold with AOE abilities and taunts/guards on healers, you'd lose your mitigation stacks applied to Ciphas and Kelsara. The fight is already VERY healing intensive, adding in extra damage because of lost mitigation is going to cause wipes from dead tanks. This isn't HM faceroll where you can ignore the secondary bosses in favor of higher DPS to get out of the raid faster, if you lose aggro on C/K for more than 5 seconds, you have a dead DPS/healer and you wipe.

We have seen numbers, and it's mathematically impossible for 8man, absolutely without a doubt. You need 4 players putting out 3k DPS, there's about 15 of those spread across all of the servers on dummies, some of which use AOE on multiple dummies to pad their numbers. Take in the circle running (6 up from 3, double the DPS loss from HM), the shielding phase, and adds that we didn't factor in and you have an impossible fight. I'm all about difficulty, this fight is very difficult. If we were getting closer than ~500k hp on the final boss I'd be more hesitant to say it's not possible but you can't make up for 50 seconds of DPS over a 7min fight. We have a group that is capable of pushing HM before the first lightning in the same fight, before the second spine throw during the Kell Dragon, all of the "broke the fight" standards. We're not even close at 50% enrage.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.12.2013 , 03:09 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by bigheadbrandon View Post
you cant factor in tank dps in this fight, you've done it before right?
Of course I've done this fight before. And yes, I factor in tank DPS, because you know, I'm a tank, and I do damage, and I'm intelligent enough to DPS the boss that doesn't heal back up. You don't have to hold the bosses apart. The buffs that Ciphas and Hierad get from damage to the other bosses kick in at particular HP levels and don't really start to activate until very low values. We've played around with this by killing Kel'sara first. Ciphas doesn't become a problem until the teens in Kel'sara's percentages.

And regarding damage mitigation buffs lost due to DPSing the wrong target, this is only a problem for Vanguards/PowerTechs. They can easily resolve this by tabbing back to the appropriate target, hitting Stockstrike and then tabbing back to the correct boss. Even that step wouldn't be required if you have at least one Shadow/Assassin tank in your group, since they maintain their debuff stacks through AoE.

Hold the bosses together so that the tank swaps require zero movement. Tanks DPS the correct target 100% of the time (except when Leached as a shadow).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Streaming Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
06.12.2013 , 03:11 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
1309032 + 1716816 + 1394913 + (47535 * 2 * 3) = 4705971

Note that I'm doubling the Legionaire to represent the AoE DPS loss due to the need to kill the remainder of the adds. I'm assuming you have enough AoE DPS that you don't need to single-target them down.

11204.692857143 DPS required

Tanks: 1.2k each
Healers: 0k each
DPS: 2202

Estimated Ciphas bubble delay: 12 seconds. Accounting for this delay:

420 - 24 = 396

11883.765151515 DPS required

DPS: 2371

This is not mathematically impossible.

I think what guilds are seeing right now is multi-fold. First, tanks are probably not pulling their weight. Second, DPS are unfamiliar with the NiM mechanics and psyching themselves out a bit, and thus losing a LOT of DPS due to mechanics. The numbers that people are posting (e.g. 2.6k DPS) are net over the whole fight and probably include a lot of incidental AoE on bosses that heal back up. The numbers I posted above are effective DPS, which means that you don't get to count incidental AoE on the other bosses toward your effective number.
Dps loss to doom moving, dps loss to likely three sets of summoned adds for kel, dps loss on spreading for lightning field, dps loss for the fact that all bosses gain 100% health back to which tanks need to use at least a few in the beginning of the fight. Dps loss for choke. X-X it's bad tam. Really bad.

Shandellon's Avatar


Shandellon
06.12.2013 , 03:11 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by bigheadbrandon View Post
a tank's dps isnt going to make up for the dps check required and the healers >>>can not<<< afford to dps
Precasting Mind Crush, using Weaken Mind whenever it runs out, plus small amount of damage from ForceWave, eaasily doig above 200dps as healer, while keeping everyone alive, so dont say "can not afford to"
Cyntia - Sage Hp - Gunsliger Dps
<Not Good Enough>/<FriendlyFire> @ ToFN