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New Subber - Holy Trinity Concerns

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > New Player Help
New Subber - Holy Trinity Concerns

ZoeTuah's Avatar


ZoeTuah
04.29.2013 , 06:34 AM | #11
One nice thing is that often companions can make up for players if they're geared enough. I recently ran a level 50 Hard Mode with a healer who had absolutely no clue what he was doing. I'm not a particularly squishy tank, but we were wiping on trash.

Kicked him, a DPS yanked out a moderately-geared healing companion, and we blazed through.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
04.29.2013 , 06:59 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpekulatius View Post
Spoiler
That's the (un)necesary evil of larger-scale PvE, where the situational awareness and on-the-fly adaptability of each individual player is overshadowed by raid mechanics.

Let me put this straight - I find more challenge soloing 2 and 4-man heroics than running some Nightmare modes, as far as personal effort and focus are concerned. Frankly, I only raid for gear progression and for some fun voice-comm chat with the guild when we get together.

That's the core of the animosity between raiders and soloers. Soloers (rightfully) consider their playstyle worthy of reward because soloing difficult content requires much micromanagement, strategy and effort. Raiders (also rightfully) consider their playstyle worthy of reward because it does take effort to learn to act as one in raid environment (becomes less relevant as the guild starts to farm encounters, though). However, raiders seem reluctant to accept that there are alternative playstyles that also require skill and effort and that should be rewarded as well as raiding.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

wolveen's Avatar


wolveen
04.29.2013 , 07:12 AM | #13
Using CoH/V again as a example, everything I ever played could be done with any mix AT (class).
Not every class could do everything so you had to change your tactics.
If your group consisted of all "Ranged DPS" then you had to adapt but it was do able.
If your group consisted of all "Healers" then you also had to change your tactics.

Of course like in the example of Healers there were different types of healers : Bubblers provided shields, Empathy Healers provided more of the traditional healing Role, Dark Healers provided some controller like powers, etc.
I guess it was more dimensional.

Point is Holy Trinity wasn't needed, it was more efficient, but was not needed. Those who wanted the Trinity could make that group and complete the mission, those who RPed and who just wanted to group up together, a la the Avengers (No healer there!) you could and would still complete the missions. You had to only adapt your tactics.

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
04.29.2013 , 07:30 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by wolveen View Post
Point is Holy Trinity wasn't needed, it was more efficient, but was not needed. Those who wanted the Trinity could make that group and complete the mission, those who RPed and who just wanted to group up together, a la the Avengers (No healer there!) you could and would still complete the missions. You had to only adapt your tactics.
To take a movie and compare it to a game is not really smart (in both Star Wars triologies there were no healers only medbots)

How did you clear content with only healers?
Did you just bore everything to death?
T3-M4 - Lvl 55 Chars:
T'hana Jugg, Saleona Sniper, S'inthoras Mara,Hannahla Merc, Eleondra&Eleondraa Ops,
Leeonira Sorc, CaphalÝr Sorc, Kindarya Assa, LeoniŽ PT,
Revuna Mando, Leojuna Scoundrel, Simon'e Shadow, Sileona Guardian

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
04.29.2013 , 08:15 AM | #15
Whether or not you like the "Holy Trinity", the fact of the matter is that Flashpoints in this game rely on there being a tank, a healer and 2 damage dealers in the group.

Having said that, at low levels you haven't really been able specialize enough in either role to really make a difference and the Flashpoints reflect that in that they are easy enough to be done as long as people do focus on their assigned (or chosen in Group Finder) task. So if a DPS Juggernaut/Guardian/Powertech/Vanguard equips a Shield Generator and stays in "Tank" stance they should have no issues tanking *IF* the DPS Sage/Sorceror/Scoundrel/Operative/Mercenary/Commando is focusing on healing and not DPSing.

The problems with the above is when players don't realize that Flashpoints start to REQUIRE specialization in the chosen tree at later levels (30+). Incoming damage starts to be too much for a "DPS" tank to handle because he doesn't have the necessary mitigation from talents. Incoming damage starts to be too much for a "DPS" healer to heal through because they are missing the necessary healing talents that allow them to have Heals over Time/Shorter casts/etc. Bosses start to have so much health that DPS needs the damage increasing talents to be able to take them down in a timely fashion.

Another thing that causes people to not realize that Flashpoints require specialization after a certain level is that the planetary [Heroic 4]s can generally be done with any class all the way up to max level as long as someone is taking damage (tanking) and someone is throwing out a heal every now and then.

Because of this "disconnect", some players start to run into groups in Flashpoints where things just don't work because the tank/healer are not specced for their role. This then leads to frustration due to multiple wipes and a lack of patience with those that expect to be able to do content in a role that they are not specialized for. Which then leads to a complete lack of patience (even at low levels) with those that sign up for a role when they are not specialized in it.

The thing to do is just "embrace" the "Holy Trinity" and decide early on what you want to do with your character. If you want to do damage, spec for that and only sign up for content as a damage dealer. The same applies to being a healer or tank: specialize in the role and sign up for that role only.

It really is the best for everyone's enjoyment.
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
04.29.2013 , 08:57 AM | #16
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read (note being kicked out from instance) you used group finder and qued as healer, and got kicked for not being a healer.
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

psandak's Avatar


psandak
04.29.2013 , 09:09 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Problem is - there are no better alternatives. The 4+role division is clunky as far as group composition is concerned, and the complete lack of trinity turns PvE into zergfest and reduces the tactical and strategic components of PvP.

What I really don't like is hyperspecialization that's forced on the characters. The idea of "soft trinity" is much more appealing than what we have now. Although, it used to be a lot worse in EQ, Vanilla WoW (TBC, to some degree), where healers and tanks practically counldn't solo because their damage was so miserable it took forever to kill anything.

ToR was definitely going in the right direction when it "softened up" the role division, but, in my opinion, it didn't soften it enough.
Heck it was worse than that (at least it was a decade ago) because having two clerics in a group of six EQ1 was unheard of because the cleric class had no DPS at all (when the average DPS was 500-700, a cleric on its best day could pull 100...believe me I know because I tried). Furthermore, in EQ1 of the dozen or so classes only two could effectively solo - druid and necromancer - once you got to a certain point (low teens in level), you HAD to group to accomplish anything, which could take a long time.

Quote: Originally Posted by ZoeTuah View Post
One nice thing is that often companions can make up for players if they're geared enough. I recently ran a level 50 Hard Mode with a healer who had absolutely no clue what he was doing. I'm not a particularly squishy tank, but we were wiping on trash.

Kicked him, a DPS yanked out a moderately-geared healing companion, and we blazed through.
Well in all candor depending on the level of the area/FP, and the "skill" of the player a DPS class can fill the tank or healer roles. I've done it on a number of occasions usually where a healer or tank had to leave or DCed, the group would 3-man trash to the next boss, wait a few minutes for a replacement that never comes, and we go for it. Yes, fights take longer, and yes especially DDs that heal, need to focus on their new role, but it can be done.

Further, with the relatively inexpensive field respec perk (200,000 credits) and a subscription, a player can respec a character back and forth for free.

As for using companions in FPs, the only ones that really work are healers - DPS comps break CC, and tank comps cannot absorb damage from bosses. that being said, on move heavy fights even healer comps can be wanting (try doing Jindo Kray in HM FE with a healer comp - the companion stands in the "fire" too much and dies; or in HM MP the first two bosses - the droid that drags you in and blows up, and the laser eye guy where you have to avoid LOS).

Getting back to the main topic, honestly I have never played a game without the holy trinity for any length of time. I prefer to have to pick a role and develop it that way when I group, my "skill" shows and players remember me.

Kaorunandrak's Avatar


Kaorunandrak
04.29.2013 , 10:19 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Never_Hesitate View Post
To take a movie and compare it to a game is not really smart (in both Star Wars triologies there were no healers only medbots)

How did you clear content with only healers?
Did you just bore everything to death?
You obviously never played COH/V lol And the Avengers Comic has an extreme lack of a "healer" in most cases too. In CoH I played a DPS class Called a Scrapper, Broad sword/Regen to be exact, not only could I kill everything in the game but due to my build I was able to tank better then any traditional tank.

Personally tactics and player skill play a larger role then any game mechanic does. In dark Age of Camelot it was the same I played a non traditional specced Warrior and owned every RvR battle ground and Pve raid While I was playing all based on tactical choices. In Swtor I play a hybrid Guardian I had to make some revisions to my build due to the changes with 2.0 but I have been tanking hard mode 55 flash points just fine and DPSing them as well.

As far as the op is concerned as this is a Bioware, EA, let alone Star wars game you are going to come across a lot of elitist while playing unfortunately that's the sad truth. Your going to have to chose whether or not you can deal with that or not, personally most days I just close my chat and play however; I am lucky and have guildies who I play with regularly and we have a TS and are able to talk with each other via that.

AM I saying that their are no decent open minded people in this game or in the bioware/EA/ starwars communities? No but good luck finding them a lot of them don't make their presence known simply cause of what you experienced/ are experiencing I wrote off the bioware community after the bioware social network became what it is now.

Good luck OP may the force be with you and all that jazz.

Synzer's Avatar


Synzer
04.29.2013 , 10:19 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read (note being kicked out from instance) you used group finder and qued as healer, and got kicked for not being a healer.
^This. If you were in a flashpoint and got put in as healer, but not specced as a healer, you deserve to be kicked. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no business doing flashpoints. Whether you like the mechanic or not or think it is fair, doesn't matter. People aren't being mean by kicking you, you just literally cannot do a flashpoint if you don't have a tank and healer specced for their appropriate roles. If this is something you don't agree with, then just don't play, or at least do flashpoints, you are just ruining for others.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.

Never_Hesitate's Avatar


Never_Hesitate
04.29.2013 , 10:31 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaorunandrak View Post
You obviously never played COH/V lol And the Avengers Comic has an extreme lack of a "healer" in most cases too. In CoH I played a DPS class Called a Scrapper, Broad sword/Regen to be exact, not only could I kill everything in the game but due to my build I was able to tank better then any traditional tank.
I never played it and that's why I asked.

To compare a comic to a game is just as ridiculous as comparing a movie to a game
T3-M4 - Lvl 55 Chars:
T'hana Jugg, Saleona Sniper, S'inthoras Mara,Hannahla Merc, Eleondra&Eleondraa Ops,
Leeonira Sorc, CaphalÝr Sorc, Kindarya Assa, LeoniŽ PT,
Revuna Mando, Leojuna Scoundrel, Simon'e Shadow, Sileona Guardian