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Mace Windu vs Sidious


Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.19.2013 , 11:58 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaedusz View Post
Windu is just a random jedi master ,part of the embarrassingly bad jedi clique of this timeline + Vapaad , and Sidious is Sidious.There is a good reason you are usually alone in this opinion.
Very convincing argument there. I think I'm gonna switch sides.

Ventessel's Avatar


Ventessel
04.20.2013 , 12:01 AM | #12
I'm quite sick of this whole "Vapaad is the reason Mace stood a chance against Sidious" thing.

Vapaad is just a term for Mace's saber technique. He was basically the only Jedi in the order to grow a pair and realize that aggression is a vital part of combat. He accepted that and "drew on his inner darkness" to channel his aggression.

This is a fundamental aspect of effective fighting, the ability to control your aggression, essentially keeping it on tap and ramping it up when you need to fight aggressively while still being able to dial down and not expose yourself to counterattack.

Add to this that Mace was a masterful saberist, possibly the best in the Jedi Order in his day, and you have a man who not only knows the technical aspects of combat, but maintains a razor sharp mentality. It is his mindset and willingness to embrace his "dark side" that leads to him being so dangerous, especially when compared to Jedi who are unwilling or unable to fight aggressively. Also, he was played by Samuel L. Jackson...
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell

BellsofGuilt's Avatar


BellsofGuilt
04.20.2013 , 01:41 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by VigDiath View Post
Mace Windu has to be one of my favorite Jedi and I wish the movies hadn't left it to be questioned about who won that fight.

The movies really do make it seem like Sidious threw the fight to further cement Anakin's fall to the dark side, especially at the end when he feigns like he is weak and then unleashes a powerful barrage of lightening at Mace. IMO, the book contradicts what we see in the movies, however I am all for Mace Windu winning that fight with his mastery of Vapaad.

So yes, Mace Windu won the fight.
I haven't watched that movie in a long time, but from memory it seemed like Mace overpowered Sidious and was going to deliver a fatal blow until Anakin showed up and distracted him. Sidious was begging for his life and Anakin wanted Mace to spare him but he wouldn't. Sidious then launched a surprise force lightning attack which Mace successfully defended against with his lightsaber. As Mace was about to deliver the final blow, Anakin cut his arm off. Sidious used the opportunity to attack with force lightning again but Mace could no longer defend against it.

From how that scene played out, it didn't seem like Sidious was feigning anything.

Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.20.2013 , 05:59 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
I'm quite sick of this whole "Vapaad is the reason Mace stood a chance against Sidious" thing.

Vapaad is just a term for Mace's saber technique. He was basically the only Jedi in the order to grow a pair and realize that aggression is a vital part of combat. He accepted that and "drew on his inner darkness" to channel his aggression.

This is a fundamental aspect of effective fighting, the ability to control your aggression, essentially keeping it on tap and ramping it up when you need to fight aggressively while still being able to dial down and not expose yourself to counterattack.

Add to this that Mace was a masterful saberist, possibly the best in the Jedi Order in his day, and you have a man who not only knows the technical aspects of combat, but maintains a razor sharp mentality. It is his mindset and willingness to embrace his "dark side" that leads to him being so dangerous, especially when compared to Jedi who are unwilling or unable to fight aggressively. Also, he was played by Samuel L. Jackson...
Yeah. He was able to fight like a Sith, to flirt with the dark side, without succumbing to all the temptations it bombarded him with. That alone makes him one of the greatest Jedi to ever live. Most others shut their eyes so tight they made themselves ignorant of its nature. The few that didn't like Yoda we instead too stubborn to believe the Sith were capable of evolving. That ignorance and stubbornness is what led to their defeat. The only one that really saw it coming and was able to put up a fight was Windu. And it is my belief he would of won, just barely, if not for the chosen one's need to hit the galactic reset button, which to many people's disagreements I believe encompassed both sides. People always argue which side the prophecy was supposed to be for, but I believe it was both, to wipe out both the Rule of Two and the Jedi order who for very different reasons had both really ****ed up the balance of the Force, and Mace was just unfortunately perhaps the only Jedi to not really deserve it but was simply swept along with his peers cause thats how the universe works.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
04.20.2013 , 06:41 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Doctoglethorpe View Post
Yeah. He was able to fight like a Sith, to flirt with the dark side, without succumbing to all the temptations it bombarded him with. That alone makes him one of the greatest Jedi to ever live. Most others shut their eyes so tight they made themselves ignorant of its nature. The few that didn't like Yoda we instead too stubborn to believe the Sith were capable of evolving. That ignorance and stubbornness is what led to their defeat. The only one that really saw it coming and was able to put up a fight was Windu. And it is my belief he would of won, just barely, if not for the chosen one's need to hit the galactic reset button, which to many people's disagreements I believe encompassed both sides. People always argue which side the prophecy was supposed to be for, but I believe it was both, to wipe out both the Rule of Two and the Jedi order who for very different reasons had both really ****ed up the balance of the Force, and Mace was just unfortunately perhaps the only Jedi to not really deserve it but was simply swept along with his peers cause thats how the universe works.
Even without Anakin being there, Sidious could have ended the fight with his superior force prowess. I mean the guy went from

"I..I..I'm too weak!"

to

"POWER!! UNLIMITED POWER!!"
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.20.2013 , 07:23 PM | #16
We've already mentioned how the movie makes him look to have thrown the fight much more then the book. He never does that "unlimited power" line in the book.

Really, it just comes down to how you chose to interpret it. I definitely agree that the movie implies he was toying with Mace, but the book less so (as in it gives space for either side to work) and I personally prefer to believe Mace was a match for him. I prefer characters are not too OP and actually have threats to them every now and then. I think Mace putting up a fight with Sidious and almost ruining his plans in the final hour makes Sidious a more interesting and respectable character, so I chose to believe thats how it went down rather then the more common belief that Sidious was just putting on a show and was never really threatened by anything. I think that makes him too godly and beyond any form of audience empathy.

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
04.20.2013 , 10:54 PM | #17
Also Windu had several other abilities he used during the fight besides Vaapad, in combination he proved superior to Sideous.

Btw Windu is that cool, that the Hero of tyhon is based on him hopefully in the future we see Vappad and Shatterpoint added to Jedi Knight Class.

Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.20.2013 , 11:21 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by ZahirS View Post
Btw Windu is that cool, that the Hero of tyhon is based on him hopefully in the future we see Vappad and Shatterpoint added to Jedi Knight Class.
He is? I never picked up on that at all. Always seemed to be pretty much a direct reflection of Luke to me. I mean Doc and T3 are basically Han and R2, and the JK's master serves an almost identical role as Obi-wan.

ZahirS's Avatar


ZahirS
04.21.2013 , 01:26 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Doctoglethorpe View Post
He is? I never picked up on that at all. Always seemed to be pretty much a direct reflection of Luke to me. I mean Doc and T3 are basically Han and R2, and the JK's master serves an almost identical role as Obi-wan.
He is thats what one of developers said in a walkrough video, I tried searching for it think it was Taral V developer walkrough but its exactly were the cut the video, trust me they said it.

I think hero of tython is based on windu because of the style of combat which is closer to what windu used in the movies, soresu form lightsaber combat or shi-sho.

I think mostly companions are nearly identical in roles to KOTOR more than luke, t7 is like t3, doc is like carth. and don't ever say again its based on obiwan, that chump ewan mcgregor spoiled the role old obi-wan did awesome.

Doctoglethorpe's Avatar


Doctoglethorpe
04.21.2013 , 02:02 AM | #20
I was talking about Alec's Obiwan. The JK's master, the one who becomes a force ghost and guides you... exactly what Obi-Wan did.

And come on, T7 = T3, and T3 = R2. They are both rip offs of R2. And Doc is not like Carth. Carth is a soldier-boy, not a scoundrel. He doesn't chase the ladies and the money.

And Mace uses Vaapad. Vapaad doesn't even exist in this game. And couldn't really properly depict it anyways. The movie certainly completely failed to. Vaapad is supposed to be so complex its like watching the Tasmanian Devil turn into a miniature tornado.