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2.0 DPS results for all classes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
2.0 DPS results for all classes

TrickyNinja's Avatar


TrickyNinja
03.27.2013 , 11:52 AM | #11
Wish I knew why the highest Assassin DPS are doing less damage than the lowest parse for an Operative.
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Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
03.27.2013 , 12:30 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by TrickyNinja View Post
Wish I knew why the highest Assassin DPS are doing less damage than the lowest parse for an Operative.
Because this is how the developers view it: http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/...interview.html

Apparently in a real fight assassins gain so much more damage they are fine.

I've already shown an example of an Assault Commando with armour debuff (increases about 100dps) and then at under 30% health (increases 300dps on top of 100dps from armour debuff).
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

Scar's Avatar


Scar
03.27.2013 , 02:43 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Because this is how the developers view it: http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/...interview.html

Apparently in a real fight assassins gain so much more damage they are fine.

I've already shown an example of an Assault Commando with armour debuff (increases about 100dps) and then at under 30% health (increases 300dps on top of 100dps from armour debuff).
Anyone else notice in what he points out that the Watchman/Annihilation is in the "brown" (more sever DPS inhibiting on the training dummy), and he classifies the Combat/Carnage performance on the combat dummy as light green (less sever DPS inhibiting on the training dummy), yet the Watchman/Annihilation seems to consistently out DPS the Combat/Carnage even under those circumstances? Holey mother of run-on sentences....Sorry about that.

Anyway. we have to assume parsed on a real boss that there would even be a greater gap between the two, given his criteria.

Zeghrem's Avatar


Zeghrem
03.27.2013 , 03:33 PM | #14
I actually have a couple questions on the rules set for this.
Quote:
Level 55 Operations dummy, fleet or ship
No interference from other classes e.g. armour debuff
Info on DPS tree used/Hybrid split
5 mins + of parse, the end can be cropped but not the start
Declare PTS Biochem and Augmentation
Declare 69 or 72 power gearing
First, the parse should have been done in the 'optimal' raid setting. Even the interview was stating that this was obvious flaw in the parsing. We never take just one dps to an operation. When were looking for the potential dps of a class in an operation we cannot ignore the optimal setting.

When we get another update with changes in classes, I would strongly recommend using the optimal raid setting not the solo raid dps number. All debuffs on target(and buffs) not just what a single class can bring.

Second, I really do not believe that a kill shot ability in the post 30% is part of the balancing act. That ability is completely irrelevant to a sustained parse. You don't take a dps for the last 30% of a fight nor does a fight start in <30%.

Third, has the fleet and ship dummy difference been fixed? I remember reading in another thread that the ship dummy had approximately a 10% difference in armor from the fleet. I wish I could find it but I believe the devs made a post acknowledging it as well.

While I thank you for all the work you put in. I cannot shake the problems of the parses.
pew pew

paowee's Avatar


paowee
03.27.2013 , 05:08 PM | #15
Ah nice of you to have reposted this here. been looking quite a while for this thread!
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MVaglin's Avatar


MVaglin
03.28.2013 , 02:55 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
When we get another update with changes in classes, I would strongly recommend using the optimal raid setting not the solo raid dps number. All debuffs on target(and buffs) not just what a single class can bring.
I agree this would be preferred, but it'd require getting 2 or 3 people together when doing parses, which may be harder to accomplish. Especially since some of the people posting in this thread, spent hours perfecting their rotation.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
Second, I really do not believe that a kill shot ability in the post 30% is part of the balancing act. That ability is completely irrelevant to a sustained parse. You don't take a dps for the last 30% of a fight nor does a fight start in <30%.
If a class with executes gain 300dps for what is roughly one third of the fight, that averaged out on the entire fight is an additional 100dps. It's not insignificant. True, you don't bring people for the last 30%, butyou also don't bring people for the first 70%. The entire fight matters, and where DPS is concerned the average during the entire fight is what's interesting.

If anything the last 20% carries a bit more weight, given how Bioware designs a lot of fights these days with burn phases at the end.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
Third, has the fleet and ship dummy difference been fixed? I remember reading in another thread that the ship dummy had approximately a 10% difference in armor from the fleet. I wish I could find it but I believe the devs made a post acknowledging it as well.
They have.
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Leira_Kheren's Avatar


Leira_Kheren
03.28.2013 , 04:31 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Added DPS chart for better understanding of how they match up: http://s23.postimg.org/wnp1gcerf/tmp.png
could your order and colour them for each class?

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
03.28.2013 , 04:48 AM | #18
In short:

I do not claim these parses to be anything other than solo DPS figures on a dummy.

Take them as what they are, I am very clear about how they were achieved and with the PTS closed the rules cannot be changed even if I wanted to.

You can expand them into raid DPS by calculating damage increases from armour debuffs or sub30 damage boosters. Some executes cannot be so easily worked in.

It is not perfect but it's a galactic leap of legitimacy over the proofless or badly parsed DPS claims I trawled through to get the data collecting started.


A longer version is:

Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
First, the parse should have been done in the 'optimal' raid setting. Even the interview was stating that this was obvious flaw in the parsing. We never take just one dps to an operation. When were looking for the potential dps of a class in an operation we cannot ignore the optimal setting.
There is practical parse gathering and there is impractical parse gathering. See below:

Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
When we get another update with changes in classes, I would strongly recommend using the optimal raid setting not the solo raid dps number. All debuffs on target(and buffs) not just what a single class can bring.
No.

The original thread was over 40 pages long, over 500 replies, over 50,000 views and still few or no parses came in for certain specs (Rage Marauder anyone?).

Those who entered parses often did many many parses to knock out the current hiscore with their own improved parse, this was important to encourage going for maxmum output.

To have every parse fully powered would require up to 3 people around every dummy for every parse.

Alternatively you can have guilds taking the piss and stacking marauders for eternal bloodthirst. This is what you let yourself in for when you say you want a more complex result.

Other hassles exist if anyone mentions collecting "average" DPS numbers.

It was solo and hiscores only for simplicity and encouragement to push the limits.

You can calculate from these numbers a raid scenario except some sub30 attacks which will have to be guesstimated at best.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
Second, I really do not believe that a kill shot ability in the post 30% is part of the balancing act. That ability is completely irrelevant to a sustained parse. You don't take a dps for the last 30% of a fight nor does a fight start in <30%.
The developers say it is.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zeghrem View Post
Third, has the fleet and ship dummy difference been fixed? I remember reading in another thread that the ship dummy had approximately a 10% difference in armor from the fleet. I wish I could find it but I believe the devs made a post acknowledging it as well.
The dummy was fixed about 2 weeks into the PTS which is approximately when I began collecting parses. I was very aware of dummy changes and no old parses from the ships dummy were permitted.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN

Zeghrem's Avatar


Zeghrem
03.28.2013 , 08:00 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
In short:

I do not claim these parses to be anything other than solo DPS figures on a dummy.

Take them as what they are, I am very clear about how they were achieved and with the PTS closed the rules cannot be changed even if I wanted to.

You can expand them into raid DPS by calculating damage increases from armour debuffs or sub30 damage boosters. Some executes cannot be so easily worked in.

It is not perfect but it's a galactic leap of legitimacy over the proofless or badly parsed DPS claims I trawled through to get the data collecting started.


A longer version is:

No.

The original thread was over 40 pages long, over 500 replies, over 50,000 views and still few or no parses came in for certain specs (Rage Marauder anyone?).

Those who entered parses often did many many parses to knock out the current hiscore with their own improved parse, this was important to encourage going for maxmum output.

To have every parse fully powered would require up to 3 people around every dummy for every parse.

Alternatively you can have guilds taking the piss and stacking marauders for eternal bloodthirst. This is what you let yourself in for when you say you want a more complex result.

Other hassles exist if anyone mentions collecting "average" DPS numbers.

It was solo and hiscores only for simplicity and encouragement to push the limits.

You can calculate from these numbers a raid scenario except some sub30 attacks which will have to be guesstimated at best.



The developers say it is.
Please do not take this as condemning of how you wanted to test as much as the community needing legitimate raid numbers instead of leader boards within the class on a dummy enemy.

I'm glad you did the work for it(I really do appreciate the effort) but what the parses amount to is a purely solo case in a raid scenario. They do not offer true insight into how a class performs with the buffs the devs mention. I'm glad my shadow does really well on 55 champion enemies out on the planet. That does not tell me anything about how the class performs when with other classes in a raid environment. We have the whole forum screaming the sky is falling on shadow/assassin when this is likely furthest from the truth. Every time I see a post saying were 200-300 behind the next lowest it just becomes a "hnnnnnnng, WHY? WHERE? HOW ARE YOU GETTING TO THAT? STOP!".

As a leaderboard this is a fair step in the right way. When I see forum posters try to take these as legitimate numbers and use them against devs, I just feel awful for devs.

Yes I know the 30% was added into their calculations. What I mean is that I cannot believe that they actually balanced classes around that final 30%. I consider that just awful design. Personally. Hurrah, you're disappointing for the majority of the fight but that last 30% you are above average. It is awful design and I cannot wrap my head around it.
pew pew

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
03.29.2013 , 12:07 AM | #20
The numbers coming out of that dummy are what people will see when this goes live.

We can see from the indirect developer response to the listing of dummy parses that only two specs can consider the numbers they get from a dummy as correct.

The answer should not be *get more people involved for one to accurately operate the DPS checking tool*

Neither should the answer be *smother any posting of dummy DPS with disclaimers that they are not fully accurate*

While I do my own calculations to roughly work out "raid dps" it's unreasonable to have to do this.

If the developers want less grief when people check their damage output on the provided dummy they need to make a more complex version which can toggle certain assumed raid buffs and frankly, die, to permit sub30 talents to be shown.
Hotwired @ Not Good Enough @ ToFN