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Which tank is good at what?


Flyluke's Avatar


Flyluke
03.07.2013 , 08:45 AM | #31
Quote:
Those 5 seconds are used when the excrement hits the fan. One does no go around merrily activating Resilience all over the place. You keep it available so you can buy time and live in critical situations.
That maybe true in the lower Ops and Flashpoints but in more demanding Ops (Denova NM atm) you have to use Resiliance not only as "oh ****" button, but use it to catch the huge Force /Tech attacks. Like the Dot from Kephess or the Jump from Z+T or in the Firebrand and Stormcaller encounter when you planted the double Destruction debuff to your mates and the healer is keeping them up and cannot heal only the tank.

In General being a good Shadow Tank (which is the only tanking class i can really speak about) is about knowing when and which damage is incoming. For example using Resilience during defensive phase at Firebrand and Stormcaller is just silly because it will do nothing for you. Using your defense Cooldowns proactivly to keep you at a health sweetspot (100% health is a waste of selfheal) is a big part in Shadow Tanking and stealthing when the excrements have allready hit the fan is just saving you a lot of Rep costs.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
03.08.2013 , 01:22 AM | #32
Yes, I've popped Resilience yesterday when tanking Z&T. But then again, I *was* tanking as full on dps.

Jurugu's Avatar


Jurugu
03.15.2013 , 04:18 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
As the OP example of HM EC, I love healing the Kephess fight with shadow tanks. I can pretty much set back and relax as a healer on this fight with two well played Shadows. Not difficult with a vanguard or guardian either, but with a shadow, I have no worries.
What is your Shadow Tank doing differently, then?

The way it was explained to me was that Shadows compensate their lower (even with Combat Technique) armor with the increased shield chance granted by Kinetic barrier. In encounters where those charges are eaten up too quickly though (basically any boss that has frequent hitting melee attacks, like EC Kephess and supposedly Zorn) that defense crumbles, and the Shadow is at a severe disadvatage compared to the other tanks. What am I missing?

---

Also, on another note, what is the official word on the 2.0 changes? I have read the patch notes, but of course I am not sure I evaluated them correctly. The way I understood for example the Shadow changes was that it's mitigation actually got worse (the 20% armor buff is removed, and Kinetic Barrier got a longer cooldown), but in turn she got other gimmicks like increase to the healing recieved and an encounter specific way to buff the healing output in general. Which seems to put the Shadow even further into the 'tricky and gimmicky' direction compared to the 'I just shrug it off' attitude of Guardian and Vanguard.

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Kitru
03.15.2013 , 07:07 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Jurugu View Post
The way it was explained to me was that Shadows compensate their lower (even with Combat Technique) armor with the increased shield chance granted by Kinetic barrier. In encounters where those charges are eaten up too quickly though (basically any boss that has frequent hitting melee attacks, like EC Kephess and supposedly Zorn) that defense crumbles, and the Shadow is at a severe disadvatage compared to the other tanks. What am I missing?
You're forgetting that a great Shadow tank doesn't just rely on their "standard" mitigation. A good Shadow tank is going to keep up KW, use TkT as much as possible to maximize self healing, and all of those other things that you do all of the time. A *great* Shadow, on the other hand, is going to know how and when to abuse the living hell out of Deflection and, especially, Resilience. Deflection is on a lower CD than Saber Ward and does pretty much the same thing; Resilience is on a ~35 second functional CD (thanks to Elusiveness) and can and should be used to ignore large F/T attacks (like Kephess's huge Internal DoT). Essentially, you're missing the way a properly played Shadow is going to completely ignore large swathes of incoming damage through judicious use of CDs.

Quote:
Also, on another note, what is the official word on the 2.0 changes? I have read the patch notes, but of course I am not sure I evaluated them correctly. The way I understood for example the Shadow changes was that it's mitigation actually got worse (the 20% armor buff is removed, and Kinetic Barrier got a longer cooldown), but in turn she got other gimmicks like increase to the healing recieved and an encounter specific way to buff the healing output in general. Which seems to put the Shadow even further into the 'tricky and gimmicky' direction compared to the 'I just shrug it off' attitude of Guardian and Vanguard.
You're forgetting a few things.

First off, yes, KW got its CD increased (from 12 to 15 seconds), but it also got the number of charges increased from 8 to 15, which is a massive net gain. You're also forgetting how Kinetic Bulwark is going to provide a pretty impressive amount of additional Absorb over time (each KW stack you lose generates 1 KB stack, up to a max of 8, and they stick around until you use KW again). You're also overvaluing the 20% armor bonus from Stasis that got removed: CT already provides 115% increased armor, which means Shadow are going from 235% total armor to 215% total armor, which isn't a major decrease (it ends up being ~8.5% less total armor and a loss of roughly 1% K/E DR. Shadows are also getting what is, quite possibly, the best survivability CD in the game in Battle Readiness; currently, it's just a 10% heal with a pittance of increased self healing for 15 seconds, but, after 2.0, it's going to heal for *more* (15%), increase self healing *even more* (35% increased proc chance along with the existing 100% increased healing from proc), and provide 25% additive DR (which, combined with Shadow K/E DR, translates into the same equivalent survivability contribution as Warding Call) and it still lasts 15 seconds (pretty much everything except for a VGs Reactive Shield is 12 seconds or less).

It should also be mentioned that Shield/Absorb got buffed *massively*: all K/E damage attacks (which means all existing M/R attacks and a large majority of F/T attacks) can be shielded. As such, the massive Shield/Absorb advantage that Shadows have, and will *still* have, means that Shadows get more out of the Shield changes than the other classes do, even VGs.

A lot of people got hung up on the removal of 20% additional armor (which was a pittance anyways) and the increased CD on KW without actually paying attention the *massive plethora* of huge outright buffs that Shadows got. The buffs Shadows got are indeed *huge* and, honestly, I think Shadows are in an even better position than they currently are, especially now that Shadows won't just fall over in the presence of F/T K/E heavy fights.
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mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
03.15.2013 , 08:51 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Jurugu View Post
What is your Shadow Tank doing differently, then?
http://www.thewalkingcarpets.com/for...tanking-primer

Well this was written by my favorite tank in the game (only judged by that I have done so much endgame content with him). The player is also my favorite gunslinger and Focus spec Sentinel. Again, so may not have anything to what he is doing, but more to do with us playing so much together that I know when I need to really focus healing on him and when I can largely ignore him and top off the rest of the raid.

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Jurugu
03.15.2013 , 09:37 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
A *great* Shadow, on the other hand, is going to know how and when to abuse the living hell out of Deflection and, especially, Resilience.
Maybe you could give an example on how to 'abuse' Deflection, seeing as it is a 2 Minute CD still? Say for EC Kephess.

Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
http://www.thewalkingcarpets.com/for...tanking-primer

Well this was written by my favorite tank in the game (only judged by that I have done so much endgame content with him). The player is also my favorite gunslinger and Focus spec Sentinel. Again, so may not have anything to what he is doing, but more to do with us playing so much together that I know when I need to really focus healing on him and when I can largely ignore him and top off the rest of the raid.
Sadly, while that primer IS informative, it does not address the one issue I was curious about: How to deal with those situations where Kinetic Ward is stripped off early. It only mentiones that this is when Shadows are in trouble.

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mikebevo
03.15.2013 , 10:17 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Jurugu View Post
Sadly, while that primer IS informative, it does not address the one issue I was curious about: How to deal with those situations where Kinetic Ward is stripped off early. It only mentiones that this is when Shadows are in trouble.
I will ask him and get back to you. However, that may be one of the times you need the healer to be throwing big heals at you. I will reply when he gets back with me, if Kitru doesn't answer it first.

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Kitru
03.15.2013 , 11:11 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Jurugu View Post
Maybe you could give an example on how to 'abuse' Deflection, seeing as it is a 2 Minute CD still? Say for EC Kephess.
You abuse Deflection by being able to use it 50% more often than Saber Ward. Essentially, if you're sitting on Deflection with it recharged, you're wasted it (the same can be said of all tank CDs though). You abuse it by actually using it as much as possible (though this doesn't mean that you should use it on low damage phases). Keep in mind, Deflection isn't as massively game breaking as Resilience is; abusing the living hell out of it is something that every Shadow tank should try to do, but it's not nearly as requisite to the whole "amazing Shadow tank" concept as abusing the hell out of Resilience.
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mikebevo
03.15.2013 , 03:17 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
I will ask him and get back to you. However, that may be one of the times you need the healer to be throwing big heals at you. I will reply when he gets back with me, if Kitru doesn't answer it first.
He says listen to Kitru, Kitru knows more about it than him.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
03.15.2013 , 03:48 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Jurugu View Post
Sadly, while that primer IS informative, it does not address the one issue I was curious about: How to deal with those situations where Kinetic Ward is stripped off early. It only mentiones that this is when Shadows are in trouble.
KW stripped off early? That *could* be a problem if it happened often.