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8 Man Xeno HM not balanced..


Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
03.04.2013 , 05:44 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Satedbuffalo View Post
But effective damage in per capita is still less, isn't it?
I think his argument is that while damage amounts are "only" 1.5 times higher, raid damage is applied to twice as many people, which increases healing requirements by some given subfactor.

Obviously it's not really a robust theory: the reality of encounters is significantly more complex than "healers must do 1.25 times more output on 16-man". If that were true, for example, certain moments in encounters that require close to maximum achievable HPS would therefore wipe a raid in 16-man, when clearly they do not.
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Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.04.2013 , 05:59 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I think his argument is that while damage amounts are "only" 1.5 times higher, raid damage is applied to twice as many people, which increases healing requirements by some given subfactor.

Obviously it's not really a robust theory: the reality of encounters is significantly more complex than "healers must do 1.25 times more output on 16-man". If that were true, for example, certain moments in encounters that require close to maximum achievable HPS would therefore wipe a raid in 16-man, when clearly they do not.
No, that's not the argument at all.

I'll attempt to simplify.

In an 8-player Ops, you have a tank healer (commando / scoundrel) and a raid healer (sage / scoundrel). Since 8 player is the baseline, the healing they have to put out is 1.0

In an 16-player Ops, you have two tank healers and two raid healers. There is a 1.5 damage multiplier. This brings the total amount of healing up to 2.5. By simply doubling the healer for each role, you come up to 2.0. But you still need to heal 2.5. So each healer needs to heal 1.25 in order to meet the healing requirements for a fight.

1.25 > 1.0 . There is a greater amount of healing required in 16.

Now obviously this is generally speaking. There are fights (like Dread Guards) where the raid healer will do more cross over healing than normal, and the same can be said vice-versa in the case of Soa.

But in a non-specific, general case each healer in 16 must do 1.25 instead of 1.0.

edit: if you want it put simply, 8-player, as I stated above, is baseline. 100%. By going into a 16, in order to meet the healing requirement, each healer must push up to 125% healing.

Some numbers.

Boss hits the tank for a total of 1,000 damage. In 8-player, the tank healer needs to put out 1,000 effective heals. In 16-player, the boss will hit the same tank for 2,500 (the damage multiplier). The two tank healers need to combine for 2,500. In this example, if the two healers are healing equally, they need to put out 1,250 heals. Clearly more than in the 8 model.

I hope this makes my argument easier to understand.
Elidibs Draconis, Kinetic Shadow
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Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
03.04.2013 , 06:35 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
In an 8-player Ops, you have a tank healer (commando / scoundrel) and a raid healer (sage / scoundrel).
I realise this is besides the point, but this statement is almost never true in my experience. Certainly not for relevant content.

Quote:
There is a 1.5 damage multiplier. This brings the total amount of healing up to 2.5. By simply doubling the healer for each role, you come up to 2.0. But you still need to heal 2.5. So each healer needs to heal 1.25 in order to meet the healing requirements for a fight.
I understand your argument now (your use of the word "multiplier" was a little confusing), I just don't think it really helps prove any points.

For baseline healing requirements, even if overall damage was 2.5 times higher that wouldn't make healing any more difficult, because in the vast majority of encounters healer output is not pushed. Or, in other words, if 8-man DTPS was 1.25 times what it is, it still wouldn't be harder, because there's plenty of HPS headroom anyway.

Conversely, in moments where significant damage is incurred, your figures clearly don't hold because fights would be impossible. Kephess would hit the tank for some 38k when applying Savage Wounding, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't do.

I'm not saying fights aren't harder on 16-man. I'm not qualified to say that for one. But I have yet to even see an ops group with 8 great players. So you'll understand why I find it hard to believe that the few active 16-man progression guilds in this game really do have 16 great players to benchmark encounters against, in a game where most of the genuinely good people left a long time. It also relies on the idea that the developers are consistently incapable of actually balancing their content, and somehow their internal testing fails to show that the difficulty is out of line with their own intentions. Is it possible? Sure. Do I remain slightly sceptical? Of course.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Thorriin's Avatar


Thorriin
03.04.2013 , 06:40 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
In an 8-player Ops, you have a tank healer (commando / scoundrel) and a raid healer (sage / scoundrel). Since 8 player is the baseline, the healing they have to put out is 1.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=bIMQkI-GUzA#!

Skip to 8:46.

I highly doubt that having only the "tank healer" on the shadow would have been able to keep him up...
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Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.04.2013 , 07:54 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Thorriin View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=bIMQkI-GUzA#!

Skip to 8:46.

I highly doubt that having only the "tank healer" on the shadow would have been able to keep him up...
I already mentioned there is cross over. Stop trolling.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I realise this is besides the point, but this statement is almost never true in my experience. Certainly not for relevant content.


I understand your argument now (your use of the word "multiplier" was a little confusing), I just don't think it really helps prove any points.

For baseline healing requirements, even if overall damage was 2.5 times higher that wouldn't make healing any more difficult, because in the vast majority of encounters healer output is not pushed. Or, in other words, if 8-man DTPS was 1.25 times what it is, it still wouldn't be harder, because there's plenty of HPS headroom anyway.

Conversely, in moments where significant damage is incurred, your figures clearly don't hold because fights would be impossible. Kephess would hit the tank for some 38k when applying Savage Wounding, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't do.

I'm not saying fights aren't harder on 16-man. I'm not qualified to say that for one. But I have yet to even see an ops group with 8 great players. So you'll understand why I find it hard to believe that the few active 16-man progression guilds in this game really do have 16 great players to benchmark encounters against, in a game where most of the genuinely good people left a long time. It also relies on the idea that the developers are consistently incapable of actually balancing their content, and somehow their internal testing fails to show that the difficulty is out of line with their own intentions. Is it possible? Sure. Do I remain slightly sceptical? Of course.
The statement that was presented -- which I countered -- is that HPS requirements are lower in 16 than in 8. Whether or not you need all that HPS -- I agree with you that you don't -- is irrelevant. When you pool up all the healing in 8, and then calculate for 16, the HPS required per healer to heal up all the damage is higher in 16 than 8. Do you need all of that? No. But the math proves the statement wrong.
Elidibs Draconis, Kinetic Shadow
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Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
03.04.2013 , 08:04 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
The statement that was presented -- which I countered -- is that HPS requirements are lower in 16 than in 8. Whether or not you need all that HPS -- I agree with you that you don't -- is irrelevant. When you pool up all the healing in 8, and then calculate for 16, the HPS required per healer to heal up all the damage is higher in 16 than 8. Do you need all of that? No. But the math proves the statement wrong.
Fair point.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
03.04.2013 , 11:42 PM | #27
Why is the healing required 2.5x normal instead of 1.5x normal if incoming damage is only 1.5x normal damage?