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8 Man Xeno HM not balanced..


Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.02.2013 , 02:01 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by AshlaBoga View Post
Only fight that comes to mind is Fabricator. Writhing Horror seemed a bit easier but that might have been because were overgeared when we got around to doing him on 16 man.
I'd say it's overgear. Writhing Horror has a very lenient enrage timer in HM, so that's a large part of it. But the DoT ticks a lot harder and with the increased players, the chance of getting gibbed by puddles (or putting them in bad spots) is increased.

In the current tier the following fights are easier in 16:

Operator IX

That's it. Everything else is harder on 16. This is mostly to do with the 1.5x damage multiplier when you go from 8 -> 16. I've even seen this in 2.0 content. Yes, there are more healers, but tanks take more damage, the raid takes more damage, and you absolutely have to obey mechanics. In 8 runs of Kephess the Undying, for example, I've seen healers (non-scoundrel) get Energy Distortions and really no one cares. Why? The damage done to the tanks is so low it doesn't matter if the healer isn't healing. In 16? Yeah, that can wipe you. Same applies to TFB himself. On 8, I've seen fights where you do a good chunk of phase 2 with a DPS down. If you lose even a single DPS on 16, the irregularity phase will likely wipe you, nevermind the much harsher enrage timer.

Which is why i maintain that anyone who says 16 is easier either has not done it before or is a troll starved for attention.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
03.04.2013 , 12:14 PM | #12
The DPS and HPS requirements per person are lower in 16-man content. As far as I know, that's true of every boss encounter. That's what people mean when they say that 16-man content is designed to be easier: in terms of raw numbers, it is.

However, 16-man mechanics require more people to have a clue and avoid doing stupid things in order for those reduced outputs to be felt. Finding 16 people to function at progression-raiding levels is really difficult.

16-man Xenoanalyst, on a per capita basis, is significantly easier to dps and to heal than the (already super easy) 8-man. Fights with real mechanics feel harder on 16-man because people make mistakes. Xenoanalyst is such a wimpy fight, mechanics-wise, that is just doesn't feel that way.
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.04.2013 , 01:02 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Satedbuffalo View Post
The DPS and HPS requirements per person are lower in 16-man content. As far as I know, that's true of every boss encounter. That's what people mean when they say that 16-man content is designed to be easier: in terms of raw numbers, it is.

However, 16-man mechanics require more people to have a clue and avoid doing stupid things in order for those reduced outputs to be felt. Finding 16 people to function at progression-raiding levels is really difficult.

16-man Xenoanalyst, on a per capita basis, is significantly easier to dps and to heal than the (already super easy) 8-man. Fights with real mechanics feel harder on 16-man because people make mistakes. Xenoanalyst is such a wimpy fight, mechanics-wise, that is just doesn't feel that way.
This isn't true of every boss encounter.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
03.04.2013 , 01:39 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
This isn't true of every boss encounter.
I only do 16 man content to gear underperforming dpsers up - which bosses require more output in 16 man?

I honestly don't remember a single boss with 2.5 the amount of HP they have on 8 man.
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.04.2013 , 03:18 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Satedbuffalo View Post
I only do 16 man content to gear underperforming dpsers up - which bosses require more output in 16 man?

I honestly don't remember a single boss with 2.5 the amount of HP they have on 8 man.
Every boss in EC NiM for starters.

edit: Your HPS argument is flawed for every fight in 16, too.

In 16-player Ops there is a 1.5x damage multiplier for all incoming damage (tank, raid, avoidable). In a 16-player Ops you go from 1 -> 2 tank and raid healers respectively. So you have 1 tank healer for the base damage, a second to cover the 1x multiplier but there is still 0.5x multiplier to consider. This means that each healer needs to heal at a 1.25 clip instead of a 1.0 clip.

So yeah.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
03.04.2013 , 04:07 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
Every boss in EC NiM for starters.

edit: Your HPS argument is flawed for every fight in 16, too.

In 16-player Ops there is a 1.5x damage multiplier for all incoming damage (tank, raid, avoidable). In a 16-player Ops you go from 1 -> 2 tank and raid healers respectively. So you have 1 tank healer for the base damage, a second to cover the 1x multiplier but there is still 0.5x multiplier to consider. This means that each healer needs to heal at a 1.25 clip instead of a 1.0 clip.

So yeah.
I usually do 8-man raids with two tanks and two healers.
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.04.2013 , 04:15 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Satedbuffalo View Post
I usually do 8-man raids with two tanks and two healers.
This is not a refutation of what I said.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

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Satedbuffalo
03.04.2013 , 04:29 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
This is not a refutation of what I said.
I guess I didn't udnerstand what you meant. Isn't 4 healers for 2 tanks with 1.5 the normal incoming damage less healing required than 2 healers healing 2 tanks?

Or are you saying that because there are 16 people, aoe damage is more significant?
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!

Mavery's Avatar


Mavery
03.04.2013 , 04:42 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Satedbuffalo View Post
I guess I didn't udnerstand what you meant. Isn't 4 healers for 2 tanks with 1.5 the normal incoming damage less healing required than 2 healers healing 2 tanks?

Or are you saying that because there are 16 people, aoe damage is more significant?
You have two tank healers and two raid healers. There is some cross over, but the vast majority of tank healers heals goes to tanks and same for raid healers.

Yes, AOE damage is much more significant because of the 1.5x damage multiplier.

So in order to overcome the multplier, the tank healers need to heal at a 1.25 clip and the raid healers at a 1.25 clip.

In a 16-player Ops if you don't assign tank and raid healers... it goes south very quickly.
Former GM and RL of a once great guild. Now just wandering the galaxy looking for a good home.

Satedbuffalo's Avatar


Satedbuffalo
03.04.2013 , 04:49 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Mavery View Post
You have two tank healers and two raid healers. There is some cross over, but the vast majority of tank healers heals goes to tanks and same for raid healers.

Yes, AOE damage is much more significant because of the 1.5x damage multiplier.

So in order to overcome the multplier, the tank healers need to heal at a 1.25 clip and the raid healers at a 1.25 clip.

In a 16-player Ops if you don't assign tank and raid healers... it goes south very quickly.
But effective damage in per capita is still less, isn't it?
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!