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2.0 - anyone on the PTS?


ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
03.07.2013 , 01:11 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by GHoppa View Post
Yes KP heals for a little bit more now (in the order of what, 10-20% without getting on and checking the actual figures?), however, it is on a 9 second cooldown. The old one could be used whenever you had a an UH and it also healed to the full amount instantly, which is clearly better for facing burst damage, as damage can kill you before the hot's had a chance to run its course.
If I remember the numbers correctly, new KP heals for roughly 15% more than the old KP, albeit spread out over 9 seconds. It is that 15% healing boost, even through a HOT, that makes me prefer the new one to the old one. Moreover, each HOT tick has a crit chance, which further increases the healing value.

The only reason that the HOT could be a handicap in a PvP situation is if you can't survive the full 9s duration. At least for me, when I toss down my offheal, I don't wait until I have 10% HP left. I do it around 40-50%, when I can easily survive the next 6 GCDs to get the full HOT benefit, and thus benefit from that extra 15% heal bonus. If you regularly find yourself healing and unable to survive the extra 9 seconds, I advise healing a bit earlier.

Now, if BW would give us the old KP with just a flat, non-HOT 15% boost, then I'd be all for reverting to the old version. But if the only way to get the 15% bonus is to tack on the 9s HOT, then that is my preference.
Quote:
From what you explained, doing the same thing on with the old KP would have done pretty much the same thing.
A single shot of the old KP would not have given me enough HP to finish the fight. A single shot of the new KP, with its 15% bonus (especially with each HOT tick getting a crit chance), did give me the boost I needed.
Quote:
Please explain to me why you think the old KP is not a true mid-combat heal. You labeling is very subjective and i don't understand it. Also, please explain to me why the new KP was the only tool that would have saved you in that situation, and why the old KP was inadequte.
1. Old KP was often not worth the loss of a UH stack. We don't win fights by offhealing multiple times. We get maybe 1-2 if we are lucky. Sure, we can Flashbang into a series of 3 heals, but at that point it doesn't matter what you are casting, and you still probably shouldn't be wasting valuable UH. We win fights by using those UH stacks to cause damage. New KP, with its bonus healing through a HOT with a crit chance, makes that UH trade a much more valuable deal.

2. Addressed above.
Quote:
understand exactly where your coming from, wanting more durability from DPS spec(i do too), but i just don't understand how you feel the new heal is better. To me, the old one worked just fine in mid combat, if not better because of it all being up front healing (not too mention 5 energy cheaper).
1. I would rather a higher value heal over a longer period of time. If you are trying to offheal when already at 10%, you have probably lost that fight anyway and are also unlikely to resolve it. For me, the optimal time to offheal is in the 40-60% HP range, where you will definitely be able to survive the full duration of the HOT.

2. Energy cost is negligible because energy management has been largely solved with alacrity changes.

3. 9s CD is negligible because there was never a fight where I would trade 2 UH stacks for 2 KP heals. That was true in pre and post-2.0. Those UH stacks would absolutely be better used for SP and FF procs. But just 1 UH stack? I'd trade that for a big heal.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Haystak's Avatar


Haystak
03.07.2013 , 07:36 PM | #52
Does anyone think this class is ready for ranked yet DPS wise. Personally I am having a hard time even putting a dent in healers lately on the pts. Especially in a 1 v 1 scenario.

Im also noticing that the changes to crit, and the proc trinkets make this class seem tethered to good luck than actual skill when going through an opening rotation. Granted this was always the case before, but now it seems the low end is trememdously lower than I experience.

Im open to some suggestions, but Im really not liking the overall feel of scrapper, and DF seems like its utterly useless against someone who actually uses cleanse.
60s Scoundrel,Sage
55s Everything else

Ravashakk's Avatar


Ravashakk
03.09.2013 , 10:46 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Haystak View Post
Does anyone think this class is ready for ranked yet DPS wise. Personally I am having a hard time even putting a dent in healers lately on the pts. Especially in a 1 v 1 scenario.

Im also noticing that the changes to crit, and the proc trinkets make this class seem tethered to good luck than actual skill when going through an opening rotation. Granted this was always the case before, but now it seems the low end is trememdously lower than I experience.

Im open to some suggestions, but Im really not liking the overall feel of scrapper, and DF seems like its utterly useless against someone who actually uses cleanse.
Cleanse only kind of matters in 1v1s. In a group encounter, healers don't cleanse as much (nor can they because of the cd on cleanse) in favor of healing. I've never had an issue. With the changes, it will be even easier since corrosive grenade is less energy, no cooldown and hits up to 5 targets. So it would take 6 seconds to wipe your first set completely off with lingering toxins, and another 12 to get the second set after you reapply. They will get to a point where they have to ignore cleanse and just heal to stay alive. Then you have them.
Medicine/Lethality PVP Patch 2.3
I don't tab dot to fluff my damage...I tab dot so that when I'm done wrecking your buddy, I can move right on to wrecking you.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
03.09.2013 , 12:21 PM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravashakk View Post
Cleanse only kind of matters in 1v1s. In a group encounter, healers don't cleanse as much (nor can they because of the cd on cleanse) in favor of healing. I've never had an issue. With the changes, it will be even easier since corrosive grenade is less energy, no cooldown and hits up to 5 targets. So it would take 6 seconds to wipe your first set completely off with lingering toxins, and another 12 to get the second set after you reapply. They will get to a point where they have to ignore cleanse and just heal to stay alive. Then you have them.
Agreed. A single Op healer, or even a pair of Op healers, would have a really hard time keeping up with the DF DOTs getting tossed around a battlefield. It is extremely energy and CD inefficient to cleanse every target that was affected by the DOT, even with 2 healers working full time to do so whenever Cleanse became available. It becomes even harder against Nice Try/Lingering Toxins.

DF/Lethality are definitely capable of overtaxing a healer, and I bet that there is also now a place for them in a lot of different ranked comps.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

GHoppa's Avatar


GHoppa
03.09.2013 , 03:00 PM | #55
Okay, on the Heal:

First up, crit chance would affect the heals in the same way, for the same total average mean healing given the same stats. It doesn't really increase the healing value.

Alot of your thinking and reasoning appears to come from the mentality of 1v1 fights, not 2v1's or group fights where the old KP is better with increased up front healing. Sometimes you have to get an offheal in to give the healers some breathing room. The old KP gives more breathing room.

I have never found that if i got a KP off as dps, that i ended dying and said "damn, if that heal was 15% larger, i would have won". I find myself saying "If i had been able to get a heal off, i would have won". Against the few classes we are even or struggle against in a 1v1, if i get 1 heal off, i usaully win. If i get 2 heals off, i do win. The issue to me is getting that heal off, not it being too small. (Btw, the dirty fighting spec has done well regarding this issue).

As to the old KP not worht the UH stack and it being 15% bigger turning it into a magical heal suddenly worth it, i disagree. The old one was just as worth it.

I appreciate your viewpoint but do not agree with it. I still firmly believe the old style KP is better, not just for sawbones, but for dps classes as well. I guess it all comes down to sytle of play really.

As to the cleansing of dots mentioned:

For a healers viewpoint, if it is a hectic game, i/my team only try to cleanse the dots on the focus target at the present moment. It's all we really have time for. If the target has lots of dots on them, sometimes its not even worth trying) and you just brute force heal them through it), as you don't know how many cleanses it is going to take to get hte ones you want to be gone.

Ravashakk's Avatar


Ravashakk
03.09.2013 , 03:15 PM | #56
Sometimes cleansing a cc on a team member trumps dot cleansing. So it might be on cd from that.
Medicine/Lethality PVP Patch 2.3
I don't tab dot to fluff my damage...I tab dot so that when I'm done wrecking your buddy, I can move right on to wrecking you.

ktkenshinx's Avatar


ktkenshinx
03.09.2013 , 04:24 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by GHoppa View Post
Okay, on the Heal:

First up, crit chance would affect the heals in the same way, for the same total average mean healing given the same stats. It doesn't really increase the healing value.
That is totally true in the long run. But in the course of a single engagement, the new KP still has better healing potential, but only if that first KP application does not crit.

Let's just look at my Scrapper's numbers because those are the ones I know.

With a 35% crit chance, old KP is going to crit 35% of the time and not crit 65% of the time. Using my numbers on live, 35% of the time it will crit for 4289 HP. 65% of the time it will just get me the base (Average of min/max) 2451 HP.

On the PTS, KP has a chance to crit up front (35%) like on live, but it then has a chance to crit nine more times on the mini HOTs. On live, in the 65% of casts where my opening KP doesn't crit, I am stuck with its base healing value. On the PTS, even if that opening KP doesn't crit, each of my mini HOTs can still crit to get me just a little bit more HP. This further increases the new KPs HP boost.

In the long run, this won't matter, just as you said. But in random PvP engagements when the first KP cast doesn't crit, you will be overall happier to have the new KP with its chance to apply crits to each of the subsequent mini HOTs (you are all but guaranteed for one of those to crit).

EDIT: I should also add that it seems KP is healing for way more than just 15% right now. It's actually a total of 50% (!) more than the live version. Here are values from my level 50 Scrapper on live and my level 50 Scrapper on the PTS (I reimported him as a level 50 just so the stat comparisons were the same).

OLD KP
Min: 2309
Max: 2593
Average: 2451

NEW KP
Min: 1329
Max: 1612
Average: 1471
HOT: 2279
HOT Tick (9 total): 253
TOTAL: 3750 (HOT + MAX)

(NOTE: I know that 2.0 rebalanced some of the stats, so I would be curious to see what the Old KP would heal for with the new 2.0 stats. That might change the equation a bit)

But just looking at this, new KP is a whole lot better. It is healing for 1300 more than the old version. That's an awesome 50% buff to the HP gain on KP! With just HOT ticks, the new KP surpasses the healing value of the old KP in just 4 seconds.

I often only need 1 heal to win basically any 1v1 (or help win any 1v2/2v2), so if I have to pick my heal, the new 2.0 KP is exactly what I wanted.

If, however, you are using multiple KPs and need more heals chained together, the old version was probably better.
The Outlaw Miyke Fink: Scrapper, Prophecy of the Five
See you, space cowboys!: Formerly of Brown Coats
---THE SCRAPPER'S HANDBOOK: A PvP Guide---

Ravashakk's Avatar


Ravashakk
03.09.2013 , 06:46 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
That is totally true in the long run. But in the course of a single engagement, the new KP still has better healing potential, but only if that first KP application does not crit.

Let's just look at my Scrapper's numbers because those are the ones I know.

With a 35% crit chance, old KP is going to crit 35% of the time and not crit 65% of the time. Using my numbers on live, 35% of the time it will crit for 4289 HP. 65% of the time it will just get me the base (Average of min/max) 2451 HP.

On the PTS, KP has a chance to crit up front (35%) like on live, but it then has a chance to crit nine more times on the mini HOTs. On live, in the 65% of casts where my opening KP doesn't crit, I am stuck with its base healing value. On the PTS, even if that opening KP doesn't crit, each of my mini HOTs can still crit to get me just a little bit more HP. This further increases the new KPs HP boost.

In the long run, this won't matter, just as you said. But in random PvP engagements when the first KP cast doesn't crit, you will be overall happier to have the new KP with its chance to apply crits to each of the subsequent mini HOTs (you are all but guaranteed for one of those to crit).

EDIT: I should also add that it seems KP is healing for way more than just 15% right now. It's actually a total of 50% (!) more than the live version. Here are values from my level 50 Scrapper on live and my level 50 Scrapper on the PTS (I reimported him as a level 50 just so the stat comparisons were the same).

OLD KP
Min: 2309
Max: 2593
Average: 2451

NEW KP
Min: 1329
Max: 1612
Average: 1471
HOT: 2279
HOT Tick (9 total): 253
TOTAL: 3750 (HOT + MAX)

(NOTE: I know that 2.0 rebalanced some of the stats, so I would be curious to see what the Old KP would heal for with the new 2.0 stats. That might change the equation a bit)

But just looking at this, new KP is a whole lot better. It is healing for 1300 more than the old version. That's an awesome 50% buff to the HP gain on KP! With just HOT ticks, the new KP surpasses the healing value of the old KP in just 4 seconds.

I often only need 1 heal to win basically any 1v1 (or help win any 1v2/2v2), so if I have to pick my heal, the new 2.0 KP is exactly what I wanted.

If, however, you are using multiple KPs and need more heals chained together, the old version was probably better.
Unless BW made leftover HoT healing stack when a new KP was applied. So if it ticks for 700, and had 1400 left then that 1400 would be applied to the next one, spread over the duration.
Medicine/Lethality PVP Patch 2.3
I don't tab dot to fluff my damage...I tab dot so that when I'm done wrecking your buddy, I can move right on to wrecking you.

agsyjuco's Avatar


agsyjuco
03.11.2013 , 03:42 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by Haystak View Post
Does anyone think this class is ready for ranked yet DPS wise. Personally I am having a hard time even putting a dent in healers lately on the pts. Especially in a 1 v 1 scenario.

Im also noticing that the changes to crit, and the proc trinkets make this class seem tethered to good luck than actual skill when going through an opening rotation. Granted this was always the case before, but now it seems the low end is trememdously lower than I experience.

Im open to some suggestions, but Im really not liking the overall feel of scrapper, and DF seems like its utterly useless against someone who actually uses cleanse.
As somebody who spent a long time optimizing his gear to get a good balance between crit chance and bonus tech damage, I am really feeling the nerf to crit and surge.

Has anybody tried maxing power and alacrity as a scrapper? I just don't know if crit is worth the investment anymore - even for a spec that relies on crits for burst.
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A Day in the Life of a DPS Scoundrel

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
03.13.2013 , 05:29 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by agsyjuco View Post
As somebody who spent a long time optimizing his gear to get a good balance between crit chance and bonus tech damage, I am really feeling the nerf to crit and surge.

Has anybody tried maxing power and alacrity as a scrapper? I just don't know if crit is worth the investment anymore - even for a spec that relies on crits for burst.
I've actually found lowering my power and increasing my crit to be more helpful, esp given our short TTK on the pts. Haven't tried alacrity yet.
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