Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Please Remove Tank, DPS and Heal

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Please Remove Tank, DPS and Heal

jasonthelamb's Avatar


jasonthelamb
02.05.2013 , 10:24 AM | #191
Quote: Originally Posted by amnie View Post
it's funny how I look at it exaclty the opposite.


I too was never a fan of the 'holy trinity'


HOWEVER

I am a huge fan of having MORE set roles.


I'm a huge fan of being forced to have more than three roles a must in a raid


I want raids that need:

tank
offtank
group-healer
single-target-healer
buffer/resource-management
melee who also takes care of dots and similar effects
ranged dps

most of these things are already obsolete because some game (...) decided to get rid of it and give us the holy trinity instead, and you want it even more easy-mode? ugh.


am I the only one who also sorely misses the times where you had to run around with 3-4 different sets of gear just for endgame pve content for one role because you needed different elemental dmg/resistances?



the holy triniy is what works best. the 'old system' with the supporter role is no longer 'in', most people are turned off by it...

but as latest game developements have shown no set roles isn't working, either. you can't have a 'serious' MMO where everyone is just a dps turning into the hulk 'smash smash smash'. if I wanted to play a marauder, I would...

Also, most raids / guilds do this in TOR, it's not exactly a "set" role, but usually your lesser geared tank is the Off-tank, and depending on the fight one healer takes a group and the other takes a group, or one healer takes a tank and the other healer does the rest, and then the rest of the roles just sort of fill in.

thomasbaxter's Avatar


thomasbaxter
02.05.2013 , 10:33 AM | #192
I agree with the 'more roles' idea but I think new ops/flashpoints should be engaging (though the kind of idea I had was tested in Collicoid War Game and as most of you will know if you're stuck with a ******* or two u may as well forget completing it lol).

I'd like groups of 2s having to go to different areas etc

Quraswren's Avatar


Quraswren
02.05.2013 , 10:35 AM | #193
Yea, I don't agree with the OP.

There is a reason the trinity is still around. It's an old school format that works. I've got no problem with every class not being able to everything.

FROIDBUSTER's Avatar


FROIDBUSTER
02.05.2013 , 10:37 AM | #194
The simpler a games' class structure the better the holy trinity works. It only falls flat when a game with lots' of diversity tries to show-horn every various class into one of the three roles.

And from a design perspective its' fairly impossible for TOR to really break away from that because there isn't enough room in the class/leveling/OPs structure for more variable classes.

For example, looke at FFXI, it had an absurd number of random classes. You had soloists who would control pets, you had melee dps with specific synergies, ranged dps with their own niches, magic dps who filled burst roles, support characters purely based on group buffs, outside of just the generic support healers, etc...

But the game had a place for all that stuff. During downtime in raids and leveling groups you actually needed a separate support character on top of a healer. Sometimes you wanted a ranged DPS instead of two melee because a melee wouldn't provide the right type of damage or wasn't able to pull the enemies you needed it too.

There was a lot of room for all that crazy stuff and every class more or less had a place. TOR doesn't need all that though. Leveling is straight forward and soloable, class mechanics are simply divided into melee or ranged, regeneration and buffing abilities are unneeded or not used at all so the only support you need is a healer.

It would be a ridiculously huge undertaking and would basically require sequel level reworks to reconfigure the classes into something resembling a full cast of unique classes... and in my mind is completely unnecessary given SWTORs group limits and sizes.

Stradlin's Avatar


Stradlin
02.05.2013 , 10:40 AM | #195
Quote: Originally Posted by amnie View Post
it's funny how I look at it exaclty the opposite.


I too was never a fan of the 'holy trinity'


HOWEVER

I am a huge fan of having MORE set roles.


I'm a huge fan of being forced to have more than three roles a must in a raid


I want raids that need:

tank
offtank
group-healer
single-target-healer
buffer/resource-management
melee who also takes care of dots and similar effects
ranged dps
Isn't that pretty much you describing a perfectly ordinary, advanced raid environment under holy trinity? This is exactly how WoW was back when I raided in it atleast. I'm assuming most people who say " I like holy trinity and how it brings roles to raiding" are ultimately meaning a setting like the one you are describing.

It is a massive shame WoW dropped some of the diversity and support roles. It is even greater a shame how this means that every single WoW clone underneath the sun blindly follows their master and drops the roles in turn. TOR included.

FROIDBUSTER's Avatar


FROIDBUSTER
02.05.2013 , 11:05 AM | #196
Quote: Originally Posted by Stradlin View Post
Isn't that pretty much you describing a perfectly ordinary, advanced raid environment under holy trinity? This is exactly how WoW was back when I raided in it atleast. I'm assuming most people who say " I like holy trinity and how it brings roles to raiding" are ultimately meaning a setting like the one you are describing.

It is a massive shame WoW dropped some of the diversity and support roles. It is even greater a shame how this means that every single WoW clone underneath the sun blindly follows their master and drops the roles in turn. TOR included.
They didn't drop it off hand. They dropped it because under that 40-man raid system something like barely 5-10% of the player base reached the end content. In the long run all the raid size and class diversity was doing was being a content barrier for the majority of the playerbase.

Now some content barriers are good, since it gives your players something to work towards and build to, but from a development perspective its' completely asinine to spend millions of dollars and thousands of man hours on content that no one is playing. If no one is experiencing that content then you're essentially wasting your time.

Which is why Blizzard (and most other MMO studios) started implementing smaller raid sizes and hard modes. You get many more people into the content by removing player and class restrictions, and at the same time give those players something to work towards in the form of harder difficulty settings.

odericko's Avatar


odericko
02.05.2013 , 11:55 AM | #197
Disagree. There's nothing wrong with having the trinity - some like having dedicated group roles (like me) and some don't. There's a certain game out there that lacks party roles and it's nothing more than a zergfest, meaning no fun for me. Removing the trinity the game was built on would change the mechanics we all have been used to, playing and enjoying (at least most of us).
Hiltar - Bounty Hunter - Jung Ma

amnie's Avatar


amnie
02.05.2013 , 04:03 PM | #198
Quote: Originally Posted by Stradlin View Post
Isn't that pretty much you describing a perfectly ordinary, advanced raid environment under holy trinity? This is exactly how WoW was back when I raided in it atleast. I'm assuming most people who say " I like holy trinity and how it brings roles to raiding" are ultimately meaning a setting like the one you are describing.

It is a massive shame WoW dropped some of the diversity and support roles. It is even greater a shame how this means that every single WoW clone underneath the sun blindly follows their master and drops the roles in turn. TOR included.
I wouldn't know, I never played WoW

I just know that I really enjoyed an 'advanced' system such as the one in FFXI - and probably LOTRO (though it took people a while to realise that there's situations where you'd rather take a burgler or a captain than a dps runekeeper but that's a different story)

what I do know is that I thought it was quite refreshing to see the 'pistols' tree in the secret world, only to realise that people wouldn't take people who aren't using the pistols for 'off-healing' instead of an actual supporter (no, healing is not a 'supporting role'. healing is healing :P)

what people 'prefer' for a raid is one thing. I know that I myself (a scoundrel) do prefer the healing situation 1 scoundrel + 1 sage in an 8-man.

granted it annoyed me a little in lotro when I, a minstrel, usually wasn't the prefered healer in raids/dungeons a lot of group heal was needed, but I was all the more viable in the situations where you needed a single target healer.

it's definitely something where I see the problems and I know TOR will always have the 'easy mode trinity' if you so wish. that is ok. my days of 'hardcore raiding' and spending hours each day trying to figure out the perfect group settings/skill rotations/group skills (since both ffxi and lotro had these I guess at least some people know what I'm getting at) are over.

in TOR there's 'prefered group settings' that may be different depending on the ops (like how you only really need one tank in EV, for example)... and that's fine. it means other versions still work and more people can join (if we ignore the problem that arise with a group size of 4 leading to even bigger shortage of tanks/healers)

there's a reason why there's only so many guilds working on 16 man nim ec... and when you think about how 16 people used to be a 'small raid' in the times past... heh.

Sydexlic's Avatar


Sydexlic
02.06.2013 , 08:37 AM | #199
Quote: Originally Posted by Jetsunz View Post
Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

Recommendation:
1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration
2. Give everyone heavy armor
3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps
4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea
So basically you want to turn PvE in this game into the disorganised fuster cluck that is the norm for GW2? yeah no thanks.

Zaikyu's Avatar


Zaikyu
02.06.2013 , 10:52 AM | #200
Play Guild Wars 2 and stop bothering peeps in Swtor lol