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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.08.2014 , 09:23 AM | #3201
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
It's self-perpetuating by making itself seemingly invisible, then giving power to cishet white dudes who don't see it and having them yell "Well it wasn't a problem before/doesn't affect me".

As for Fabiyun's question about whether the men playing this game are ok with rape - there's a good chance (statistically speaking) that a reasonable portion of the male playerbase are rapists and/or rape apologists. Hell, some of them may even think this game needs more or overt rape. Because us nasty wimminz are coming in and playing "their" manly game.
That would be rather disturbing, proportionally speaking; how many men, in truth, are likely to be rape apologists?

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
02.08.2014 , 10:41 AM | #3202
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
It's self-perpetuating by making itself seemingly invisible, then giving power to cishet white dudes who don't see it and having them yell "Well it wasn't a problem before/doesn't affect me".
You are leaving out those of us who find the use of pseudo-scientific garbage words like 'cishet' to be inherently hostile, and therefore perceive the people using the term to be the de facto aggressors and the people against whom the term is used the de facto victims.

Seriously, there is already a six-letter two-syllable word for "normal" in the English language. You don't even have to use it -- if you don't specify otherwise, it's implied.

As far as people actively manifesting the mentality about which you are complaining, the term "dude-bro" seems to capture that quite well.

(This post is entirely a complaint about the use of the term 'cishet' and not an indication of hostility towards any *people*, whether posters in this thread or anywhere on the planet. It really makes it hard for me to take people using it seriously. I only see it being used by people when they are criticizing other people, and it's usually not even relevant. In this case, Tatile is calling out "cishet white dudes" even though the behavior about which she complains is not related. A "non-cishet black female" interested solely in making money and not caring about who it "harms" could just as easily be behind the behavior about which Tatile is complaining as "cishet white dudes". Thus, Tatile's choice to condemn the "cishet white dudes" appears to be motivated by a dislike of that group. I'd like to think that this appearance is misleading, which is why I am bringing up what causes that appearance.)
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!

Xilizhra's Avatar


Xilizhra
02.08.2014 , 10:47 AM | #3203
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
You are leaving out those of us who find the use of pseudo-scientific garbage words like 'cishet' to be inherently hostile, and therefore perceive the people using the term to be the de facto aggressors and the people against whom the term is used the de facto victims.
"Cis" is a valid prefix, and if that's what you're upset about, then, well, I guess there's not much that can be done about that.


Quote:
Seriously, there is already a six-letter two-syllable word for "normal" in the English language. You don't even have to use it -- if you don't specify otherwise, it's implied.
But because people with uncommon sexualities are still normally manifested, it wouldn't be accurate. The only one I can think of that would be is "common," and even that's a relative term.


Quote:
(This post is entirely a complaint about the use of the term 'cishet' and not an indication of hostility towards any *people*, whether posters in this thread or anywhere on the planet. It really makes it hard for me to take people using it seriously. I only see it being used by people when they are criticizing other people, and it's usually not even relevant. In this case, Tatile is calling out "cishet white dudes" even though the behavior about which she complains is not related. A "non-cishet black female" interested solely in making money and not caring about who it "harms" could just as easily be behind the behavior about which Tatile is complaining as "cishet white dudes". Thus, Tatile's choice to condemn the "cishet white dudes" appears to be motivated by a dislike of that group. I'd like to think that this appearance is misleading, which is why I am bringing up what causes that appearance.)
It's possible... but notably less likely, especially since people will have different opinions on what'll make money.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
02.08.2014 , 11:27 AM | #3204
Quote: Originally Posted by Xilizhra View Post
"Cis" is a valid prefix, and if that's what you're upset about, then, well, I guess there's not much that can be done about that.
I'm not saying 'cishet' couldn't ever be used in an appropriate context, I'm saying I see it used here a lot and I've never seen anybody use it appropriately.

Quote:
But because people with uncommon sexualities are still normally manifested, it wouldn't be accurate. The only one I can think of that would be is "common," and even that's a relative term.
What I'm saying is that in most cases (like this one), you don't need to use *any* special words.

Quote:
It's possible... but notably less likely, especially since people will have different opinions on what'll make money.
"Likelihood" is irrelevant -- the complained-about behavior ("doesn't hurt me" attitude) is bad regardless of the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the offender, which is why I find the use of race-, gender-, and sexual-orientation-specific language to be inherently hostile.
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!

Alexhpy's Avatar


Alexhpy
02.08.2014 , 12:34 PM | #3205
The game has so many serious problems... why bother them with this...

Also it might mess with the rating?(unsure about this but for a kid to see two guys kissing... it might confuse him)

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
02.08.2014 , 12:39 PM | #3206
Quote: Originally Posted by eartharioch View Post
(This post is entirely a complaint about the use of the term 'cishet' and not an indication of hostility towards any *people*, whether posters in this thread or anywhere on the planet. It really makes it hard for me to take people using it seriously. I only see it being used by people when they are criticizing other people, and it's usually not even relevant. In this case, Tatile is calling out "cishet white dudes" even though the behavior about which she complains is not related. A "non-cishet black female" interested solely in making money and not caring about who it "harms" could just as easily be behind the behavior about which Tatile is complaining as "cishet white dudes". Thus, Tatile's choice to condemn the "cishet white dudes" appears to be motivated by a dislike of that group. I'd like to think that this appearance is misleading, which is why I am bringing up what causes that appearance.)
Statistically speaking, cisgender, heterosexual white males are more likely than other groups (or sections of those groups) to fall into the category of rapists or rape apologists*, and, as noted by women, members of the LGBT community and nerds of colour, cisgender, heterosexual white males are also more likely than other groups to be overtly and aggressively hostile to women, members of the LGBT community and nerds of colour who play video games or otherwise engage in nerd culture. Cisgender heterosexual white males are also disproportionately represented and pandered to in video games, films, comic books and other popular media. So, when I refer to "cishet white dudes", I am not doing so out of "motivated dislike of [cishet white dudes]" (certainly not as individuals), but rather what they represent (a very narrow-minded system which both aggressively and subtly excludes and craps on everyone else) and how, when an industry such as the video game industry, is filled almost to bursting with cishet white dudes - of which, I'm sure, you will find upstanding citizens who try their damned hardest to be inclusive - you are, statistically speaking, going to be running into men who are rape apologists, misogynists, racists, or just generally par-take of the "Boy's Club" culture without considering that there are, or could be, further repercussions.

But sure, let's discuss semantics, rather than the actual problem at stake, which is an insular industry which perpetuates an anti-inclusion culture through incestuous hiring practices and aggressive "Boy's Club"ing.

Recently Hayao Miyazaki pointed out that the problem with the anime industry is that it's full of otaku. Similar applies to the video game industry, I say.


*In the West, obviously.

fabiyun's Avatar


fabiyun
02.08.2014 , 01:07 PM | #3207
It is especially important to mention cishet men, because of the implications that are made; i.e. cishet men isn't the normal, so using the word normal to describe cishet men is at the very root of the problem, they are normalised, but they aren't normal, and to the marginalised it is important to make that disctinction and actually name things the way they are. If a person is offended by that, then clearly they need to check their privilege.
"..the worst kind of DARTH one can dig up!"

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
02.08.2014 , 02:02 PM | #3208
I am amazed at the number of people who hate the word "cis". It's Latin - comes from "on the side of". Is used in chemistry. Is used in gender studies done by both psychologists and sociologists. I guess because "weirdoes" like me use it on the internet, rather than publish it in the everyman's favourite books, it must be an evil made up word.

eartharioch's Avatar


eartharioch
02.08.2014 , 03:00 PM | #3209
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
But sure, let's discuss semantics, rather than the actual problem at stake, which is an insular industry which perpetuates an anti-inclusion culture through incestuous hiring practices and aggressive "Boy's Club"ing.
I think that continually using "fighting" words (and I mean everybody, not just you Tatile) creates an air of tension that makes it difficult to discuss the actual issues. If people feel they are being accused of a crime (especially one they didn't commit) simply by being a member of a group, they will be less likely to hear appeals to reason included with those attacks.

You can attack the "dude-bro" mentality without having to [appear to] attack all cis-gendered heterosexual white males.

I've read this thread for a while, and my irritation with what I perceive to be an aggressive and hostile "anti-cishet" attitude is not solely due to your (Tatile's) specific post, I just reached the point where I thought if I kept waiting to say something, I'd do it "less civilly" than this. (FYI, this decision was made in part after having watched the "Don't Feed The Trolls" speech you linked a few weeks ago.)
Q: What did the five fingers say to the face?
A: It's a SLAP!

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
02.08.2014 , 03:19 PM | #3210
Shall we then simply refer to the Patriarchy? As that system benefits from oppressing women, people of colour and LGBT individuals in different and varied ways and, typically, values whiteness, cis-maleness and heterosexuality above all other things, and even goes so far as to oppress cisgendered, heterosexual men by deeming certain aspects of human nature to be "weaknesses", like having emotions, by associating them with an oppressed group, unless of course it's (white) man-anger.

I should also mention that I refer to the cis-ness of men in this particular instant because though trans men can and do benefit from male privilege, they do not necessarily have the typified outlook of your typical cisgender man. And, before you start bellowing the virtues of cis men to me, know that my father is cisgender, as is my husband, and both recognise the gender oppression as perpetuated by the Patriarchy.

But my calling out of cis-ness is not so much to attack cis-individuals (I am one, after all), but to make it continually recognised that cis-privilege exists and affects the medium which we discuss, as well as how it is absorbed. Transphobia and transmisogyny* is rife within the games industry - both from developers and gamers - and we should not ignore this by saying that "people" work in the industry on a whole. No, there is a very specific type of "people" who work in the games industry, and they are in the majority cisgender, heterosexual white men.

*You don't have to be saying "transgender people are disgusting" as GTAV does for this to be true