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Same gender romance discussion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender romance discussion
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Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
05.25.2013 , 07:45 AM | #1421
Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
From an Lore perspective, why would a bigoted culture, be accepting to homosexuality?
Not all fascists are the same and not all bigotry is the same, either. You are assuming that all the values of the Empire are equal to the values of entirely Earth-based fascist governments, and that is a mistake.

For all we know, the Empire could up-hold artificial reproduction means to a higher standard than standard biological means, meaning that the idea of homosexuality being "wrong" or "less worthy" on the basis of reproduction is irrelevant. Simply because the Empire has a eugenics programme designed to create highly intelligent and efficient computers, does not mean that they therefore believe in a hierarchy based on race, gender or sexuality. The origins of eugenics are not necessarily as demonic as most people think, the science was largely usurped by racial purists (I don't agree with eugenics, mind, I'm just aware of a little of its history.)

And stop making the fascists=Nazis connection. It's wholly incorrect.

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.25.2013 , 08:52 AM | #1422
It's half incorrect. The Nazis were kind of this weird merger between socialist ideas and fascist ideas - they had the health care and welfare systems and big civic programs like socialists for members of the party, but the brutal jackboot police state thing and their attitudes towards workers, businesses, and military conquest were fascist.

Hitler himself even expressed the idea that Nazism was a merger between both hard authoritarian left-wing and hard authoritarian right-wing ideologies with strong dose of cult-like nation and state worship, which just goes to show that if people go too extreme one way or the other, they end up going full-circle.

(TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC sorry)

As for the Empire, I might suggest that rampant sexism against women could lead to reduced homophobia and more tolerance towards homosexuality. This combination of attitude was fairly rare, but I can think of an example in Ancient Greece where this was common.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
05.25.2013 , 08:56 AM | #1423
No, I mean that all Nazis were fascists, but not all fascists are Nazis. That's the distinction. You can be fascist without holding the same ideals that the Nazis did.

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.25.2013 , 09:03 AM | #1424
Ah. Then yeah, basically. Nazis might have used some socialist ideas but despite the name (which was a remnant of socialists being in the party, very few of which were still around by Hitler's time) most of them didn't identify as socialists and really didn't like socialists. Hated Marx. Put socialist political dissenters in concentration camps.

copperjack's Avatar


copperjack
05.25.2013 , 10:18 AM | #1425
I thought most of the prejudice in the Empire was based on people being weak. Aliens are slaves and discriminated against because however many hundred years ago their ancestors were not strong enough to prevent themselves from becoming slaves, therefore their descendants are weak as well. I haven't noticed much sexism in the Empire; there are a lot of highly ranked people who are women. I think the only reason homosexuality would be discriminated against would be if it was believed to be a sign of weakness or somehow make one less able to serve the Empire.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
05.25.2013 , 10:28 AM | #1426
Exactly. There is no reason that I can see that would make the Empire inherently homophobic (however, I have encountered some sexism in the Empire - likely small holdovers from a patriarchal society; see that the Sith Code upholds stereotypically "masculine" emotions as being superior.) The Empire's humans are not Earth's humans - they do not have the same history or culture and therefore do not necessarily hold the same values or prejudices.

I'd say that Cool-dude's idea that the Empire's fascist values being the same as the Nazi's fascist values stems from a misunderstanding of fascism and the inability to distance the humans of a fictional culture and Earth's humans.

What is demonstrated in the Empire is a cult of personality (that of the Emperor), a social Darwinism both within the Sith circles and Force Blind professional and social circles, and a unifying military theme. I feel there are quite a few 1984 and other dystopian sci-fi themes as there are real world influences.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
05.25.2013 , 10:33 AM | #1427
While Hitler did sometimes claim that the Nazi movement contained elements of 'socialism' so as to appeal to workers, in practice this was always a Strasserite angle. The Hitlerite policy there cannot even be described as corporatism (one of the real reasons that the Nazis did not align all that well with Fascism, unlike, say, the Falange). Hitler disestablished the unions, massively pared down welfare benefits from their highs under the Republic, inserted wage controls, and pretty much out-and-out allied with the major business interests. The sole program he instituted that even "might" have been "socialist" was Kraft durch Freude, a fairly transparent attempt to buy blue-collar workers off, and that was ended at the outbreak of war.

By the mid-1930s, even Hitler's election-time rhetoric about merging socialism and völkisch ideals receded. It is difficult to claim that one is representing any sort of "socialist" endeavor when one's bombers are flattening villages in the Spanish Republic, when the USSR has become one's avowed ideological enemy, and when one's relationship with the French Popular Front government has shifted from vague disapproval to overt hostility.

If a comparison can be made between the Sith Empire and Nazi Germany, apart from the obvious elements of racism and authoritarianism and the token ones of uniforms and symbolism, it is in how remarkably hands-off they were with respect to the actual workings of government and state. Hitler's Germany consisted of several different bureaucratic and administrative structures actively fighting against each other over jurisdiction, with rarely much of a concrete goal at all. Ian Kershaw described this state of affairs as "working toward the Führer", a system in which nobody was entirely sure what Hitler wanted to actually be done at any given time. Instead, due to the "charismatic" style of the regime, the people who actually made the decisions in the government pursued objectives that they individually believed were compatible with the Führer's barely-stated (or unstated) vision - not to mention ones that would increase those people's personal power and authority.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kershaw, 1993
Hitler, by contrast [to Stalin], was on the whole a non-interventionist dictator as far as government administration was concerned. His sporadic directives, when they came, tended to be delphic and to be conveyed verbally, usually by [Hans] Lammers, the head of the Reich Chancellery, or, in the war years (as far as civilian matters went) increasingly by [Martin] Bormann [manager of the Party bureaucracy]. Hitler chaired no formal committees after the first years of the regime, when the Cabinet (which he hated chairing) atrophied into nonexistence. He directly undermined the attempts by Reich Interior Minister [Wilhelm] Frick to unify and rationalize administration, and did much to sustain and enhance the irreconcilable dualism of Party and State which existed at every level.
Remarkably similar to the Sith Emperor's style of rule, wouldn't you say?

Anyway. All that is, yeah, quite off topic. It is quite true that neither racism nor homophobia is intrinsic to an authoritarian society. Ancient Sparta, a decidedly authoritarian state - even totalitarian, although that word is painfully overused and insufficiently descriptive - was racist, although in fairly benign ways (the standard ancient Greek idea of 'the barbarian', which in Sparta's case was virtually never applied due to isolationism). It was also painfully misogynistic, both socially and legally. But it was not homophobic. Quite the opposite, really; Lakedaimonian homoioi were socially - if not legally - encouraged to develop sexual relationships with other men. So, too, the Theban "Sacred Band".

So the Empire might very well not be homophobic. It doesn't really impinge on their ideology at all. One would even think that, due to the virtually limitless freedoms afforded to Sith, that restrictions of any kind on the expression of a Sith's sexuality would be unthinkable. Sith can steal or kill whomever they please, and don't have to take orders from anybody if they don't feel like it; who, exactly, would enforce anti-homosexuality strictures?
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
As for the Empire, I might suggest that rampant sexism against women could lead to reduced homophobia and more tolerance towards homosexuality. This combination of attitude was fairly rare, but I can think of an example in Ancient Greece where this was common.
Also, modern Saudi Arabia.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

Bytemite's Avatar


Bytemite
05.25.2013 , 10:43 AM | #1428
I think there probably are some parallels between the Nazis and the Sith - the cutthroat merit system comes to mind, as well as the racism and use of slave labour, though the Nazis liked to call those concentration camps. But overall, I'd probably call the Sith Empire a theocracy - they are ruled by priests and warrior monks believed to have special or divine powers, and the head of state comes from the same group and has created a cult of personality around himself.

Quote:
was racist, although in fairly benign ways
Benign? Spartan males had to assassinate a helot before they could be considered "men" and accepted into the military.

There's a lot of Sparta in the Sith Empire as well. However, Sparta was actually less misogynistic than other Greek City States, as women were allowed to own and manage property and have a say in civic policy. On the other hand, Spartans also believed that rape was marriage.

Ancient Greece kinda sucked.

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
05.25.2013 , 10:57 AM | #1429
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite View Post
I think there probably are some parallels between the Nazis and the Sith - the cutthroat merit system comes to mind, as well as the racism and use of slave labour, though the Nazis liked to call those concentration camps. But overall, I'd probably call the Sith Empire a theocracy - they are ruled by priests and warrior monks believed to have special or divine powers, and the head of state comes from the same group and has created a cult of personality around himself.
Or, indeed, a magocracy.

But yes, I fully agree. There are many disconnects between Nazism and TOR's Sith. Which only emphasizes the bankruptcy of simply correlating all of the policies of the one with the other. Nazi homophobia has no bearing on Sith policy toward homosexuality.
Quote: Originally Posted by Bytemite
Benign? Spartan males had to assassinate a helot before they could be considered "men" and accepted into the military.

There's a lot of Sparta in the Sith Empire as well. However, Sparta was actually less misogynistic than other Greek City States, as women were allowed to own and manage property and have a say in civic policy. On the other hand, Spartans also believed that rape was marriage.

Ancient Greece kinda sucked.
I wouldn't describe the Lakedaimonian stance towards Messenians and helots as "racism". It wasn't totally class antagonism, either, of course. But in order for it to have been "racism" there would have had to have been a biological/primordialist component to it, and that simply wasn't there. Ancient Greek racism was directed against the barbaroi, or at least the idea of the barbaroi. Whatever the Spartans' problems with Messenians, fundamentally, both groups were still Greek.

And yes, ancient Greece objectively sucked. You've heard of the saying "familiarity breeds contempt"? Well, I'm extremely familiar with classical history.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"
Fanfic: Beyond Good and Evil

AbsolutGrndZero's Avatar


AbsolutGrndZero
05.25.2013 , 02:56 PM | #1430
Ok, this thread has completely fallen to Godwin's Law....
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