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Heals - my fault or not


Monoth's Avatar


Monoth
01.21.2013 , 03:12 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
This is not correct. It would take a totally derpy tank to allow a healer to pull aggro on something he has aggro on. The only mobs that will be attacking the healer are ones that were not picked up by anyone at all, so reduced threat will not help if you have the only threat. Guard is much better used on the top DPS who may actually pull aggro from a mob that the tank is trying to hold onto. There are very few fights where guarding the healer is the right move and none of them are a part of a FP.
Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded. A good tank will use a AOE taunt to grab the mobs attention but unless the healer is guarded he will just pull ALL the trash to him... A DPS is attacking ONE target so if he gets the aggro of this one mob no biggy if the DPS is any good he will have this trash mob dead in no time flat... The healer on the other hand being pummeled by 4-5 mobs is not going to last long.

I've played a Tank, Healer and DPS in HM Asastion and Nightmare Denova, I do believe i have a bit more knowledge then a person who only has played a DPS.

Not to mention how are you going to guard ALL the DPS ?!? you only have one guard, The ONLY time you guard a DPS is during the Boss fight to keep him from pulling off of you PERIOD...
F2P is like driving on a long stretch of highway with toll booths every 1/2 mile

SleepyKing's Avatar


SleepyKing
01.21.2013 , 03:37 PM | #22
Threat dumps and guards do absolutely nothing for healers (except for the small damage reduction provided by guard). As Vanarion mentioned earlier in the thread, healing induces a small amount of threat in all enemies, while dealing damage only induces threat in the enemies hit.

The upshot is that any enemy that is attacked by the DPS or tank will attack them back. Any enemy who is not engaged by a dps or tank will attack the healer. Having a guard or threat dump will not change that, since you're the only one inducing threat on those enemies, and reducing the amount of threat will not change anything. Until they are attacked by someone who does damage, they will focus all their energy on the healer. As soon as they are attacked, they will forget the healer.

What most likely happened (since that's what happens most often) is that the DPS failed to do their job. The DPS should be picking off the weak enemies first, while the tank holds the strong ones. What often happens in inexperienced groups, however, is that the DPS leap in and attack whatever the tank is attacking. That leaves every other opponent to plink away at the healer, forcing the healer to spend all their heals on themselves.

That's only a guess of course. There are a lot of things that can go wrong in trash pulls. Wandering mobs can drop by and complicate things (and there are two wandering mobs that can do that in the first FE pull). The initial burst of damage can really stress the healer, since enemies tend to unload their biggest attacks first, and whoever pulls cops everything. Players can fail to cc or break ccs through ignorance or accident. Players could just be bad at their jobs.

Essentially, for a trash pull to go as smoothly as possible, these things should happen:
1. Any wandering mobs that can join the fight should be cleared.
2. Any enemies that are to be cc'd should be marked by people who can cc them. Every class in the game except juggernauts/guardians and powertech/vanguard has some form of cc.
3. The tank should pull. Don't lead with the ccs. The tanks pull first, then cc immediately. Whoever initiates the fight is going to have every enemy unloading on them, and you want that to be the tank.
4. The tank should focus on holding the strongest enemies.
5. The dps should focus on killing the weakest enemies first, and work their way up to the strongest.
6. The healer should hang at the back and do their best to keep everyone alive, with priority on the tank.

ChicagoBearsFan's Avatar


ChicagoBearsFan
01.21.2013 , 03:41 PM | #23
My main is a Commando healer so I know exactly what you went through.
Bottom line as other posters mentioned... You had a bad tank and bad DPS. My other too. Is a tank and being a healer first has helped me become a better tank. A tank first and greatest priority is to gather agro on all targets not CCed. If a DPS pulls agro off in a trash group, no big deal, but the tank should ALWAYS have an eye on the healer and quickly taunt or attack mobs off the healer ASAP. If this breaks down or the tank can't hold all the agro the DPS should help pull mobs off healer.

Further more, while this is not directly your "fault" there is some things that you can do to help avoid this.
- put trauma probe on your self in a FP untill your gear level improves. This will help survivabity. When your gear improves put it on the tank.
- Avoid dropping Advanced medical probe or medical probe as your first heal. They generate a lot of agro. Try throwing a few bursts of hammer shot on the tank while he and the DPS generate agro... THEN drop AMP and MP as needed.
- Don't forget your skills! Use diversion religiously. It helps drop your agro on mobs near you, often completely. Also as you mentioned , you have your defensive shield, but you also have other skills to be used...
- Adrenalin rush- a small Self HOT that may be just enough to keep you alive.
- Concussion charge- AOES knockback. Don't over use this as it will not help with agro but could buy valuable time.
- Cryo grenade- stun at least 1 mob and keep them off you.
- tech override followed by concussive bolt- insta cast your CC on a blue or gold star mob attacking you.
- kill them your self- as commandos we have some of the best AoEs, drop them all on the mobs and if you don't have ammo left you can pop emergency reserve cell.
In the end... A halfway decent group should not let this happen.
Bearsfan - Commando Healer / DPS
Chicago - Shadow Tank
BeÓrs - Scoundrel Healer
<The Jedi of Camelot>JawaSpanker Legacy ~ POT5 Server

legolegion's Avatar


legolegion
01.21.2013 , 04:55 PM | #24
guard may not do much but it helps
keeping in taunt range is more important

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
01.21.2013 , 08:29 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded.

...
I just have to comment on this as I think you're confused about threat mechanics.

When a dps or tank attacks a mob, the damage goes into the threat table of that particular mob. If aoe abilities are used, threat is built on multiple mobs at the same time. When a healer heals anybody, healer threat is added to EVERY mob in the fight.

If there are mobs that nobody is attacking, then the ONLY player building threat is the healer. It doesn't matter if guard is on reducing threat, the healer will STILL be at the top of the threat table as he's not competing with any other player for aggro.

Tanks with aoe attacks can manage threat on multiple targets. Taunts will put the tank back at the top of the aggro table for every mob affected by the taunt. DPS can attack mobs and gain threat. All of these things keep the healer safe.

Do you follow? Even if you guard the healer, he will draw aggro from any mob that didn't get attacked by the tank or dps. Conversely, if the tank and dps are attacking the mobs, the healer threat is insignificant by comparison.

The group at the start of False Emperor has two big droids, two sith and a handful of normals (don't remember how many). No matter what your group makeup, you will always be able to CC at least one of those mobs. The dps can clean up the weak mobs in seconds, and any tank worth anything can easily keep aggro on 3 mobs until the dps get there.

It's not like you're hurting anything by putting the guard on the healer. But thinking you're somehow helping is silly.

Edit: I've also healed that fight and been killed before. Let's look at the wrong way to do that fight:

1. Tank opens with a taunt, lulwhut?
2. DPS aoe the CC'ed mobs breaking them.
3. One dps has gold fever.
4. The other is attacking whatever the tank attacks.
5. The healer gets attacked by one of the Sith.
6. Healer tries to kite the Sith towards the tank, who doesn't notice or whose taunts are on CD.
7. Three normals aggro on the healer.
8. Everything goes to pot.
9. Blame the healer.

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
01.21.2013 , 09:13 PM | #26
something to note about dps attacking the tank's target.

from what I've experienced personally, SWTOR is unique in how the trash pulls work. in most MMO's I've played - you attack tanks target, because otherwise, you pull aggro and as a dps - you are not supposed to. likewise, some tanks (at least me before hounding the forums, but I doubt I'm unique) may think that they need to try and grab everything and end up holding nothing.

it is especially ingrained if you played WoW.

there are several possible solutions to this issue

1. tell dps that they need to kill weak mobs first.
2. run to the tank, in hope that their AoE might pick up the mob beating on you (only really works with melee mobs)
3. if you have CC of your own - even if its just 4 second stun - use it on a strongest mob attacking you and let people know you have stuff on you.

if you are healing, maintaining your resource, keeping tank and yourself up, first and foremost, but not neglecting dps? its not your fault if things go south. unless you die because you stood in bad, its not your fault that you died. sometimes, even if you are super amazingly talented healer with best possible gear, there's still nothing you can do to salvage a pull.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
01.21.2013 , 09:58 PM | #27
@Jeweledleah, I've had a few people help me understand the difference in other MMOs, and I believe I've got most of it.

One question I have is, in WOW (or whatever) how does healer aggro work? In TOR, heals add threat to every mob. Does that not happen in WOW? If the tank and dps are only attacking one mob at a time, what keeps the rest of the mobs off the healer?

Ailie's Avatar


Ailie
01.21.2013 , 10:36 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
The TL;DR version of this is correct. Healers pull aggro from everything, your DPS didn't hit the stuff the tank couldn't pick up so it killed you. You can try your aggro dump, but it probably won't work.
Exactly and here's the biggest tip I can ever give.

DO NOT start healing before or just on the start of the fight. Laying down your AoE or even your trauma probe procing on first hit WILL draw aggro to you. Wait just like the DPS for the tank to actually put a hit on the mobs before you start healing. Sage bubbles don't count, spam those bubbles like crazy, but anything that provides a heal will build aggro.

I've seen so many healers lay down their AoE heals or HoTs before the fight starts and wonder why they get their faces chewed off.
The Azure Wings of Dawn - Against All Odds
azurewingsofdawn.enjin.com

Ailie's Avatar


Ailie
01.21.2013 , 10:45 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded. A good tank will use a AOE taunt to grab the mobs attention but unless the healer is guarded he will just pull ALL the trash to him... A DPS is attacking ONE target so if he gets the aggro of this one mob no biggy if the DPS is any good he will have this trash mob dead in no time flat... The healer on the other hand being pummeled by 4-5 mobs is not going to last long.

I've played a Tank, Healer and DPS in HM Asastion and Nightmare Denova, I do believe i have a bit more knowledge then a person who only has played a DPS.

Not to mention how are you going to guard ALL the DPS ?!? you only have one guard, The ONLY time you guard a DPS is during the Boss fight to keep him from pulling off of you PERIOD...
Sorry mate, don't care what you've run or what difficultly, you're doing it wrong.

It is entirely possible for one tank to keep aggroing on multiple mobs, even if they're not grouped up. If a tank can't do this, they suck. It doesn't take much to throw a Project at a stray mob or cycle targets to maintain aggro, and this of course only counts for when you have absolutely zero CCs.

I have NEVER allowed my healer to die by doing my job as tank. I've derped it sure but have always been able to pick it up next time. Why? Because I think about my damn pulls rather than just rushing in. I CC what I can, I pull in stray mobs or push them together. It's called, you know, tanking!

And I have NEVER placed guard on a healer. I have this argument with them and other Ops groups all the time. Not only should they never need it (idiot sages putting their AoE heal down before I pull aside) but putting it on a DPS means they can do a bucketload more damage without having to worry about pulling.

Guards on DPS, always
The Azure Wings of Dawn - Against All Odds
azurewingsofdawn.enjin.com

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
01.22.2013 , 12:11 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
@Jeweledleah, I've had a few people help me understand the difference in other MMOs, and I believe I've got most of it.

One question I have is, in WOW (or whatever) how does healer aggro work? In TOR, heals add threat to every mob. Does that not happen in WOW? If the tank and dps are only attacking one mob at a time, what keeps the rest of the mobs off the healer?
there was another great post here explaining the differences in detail, but basically, healer threat works pretty much the same way. what different is the number of trash mobs in a pull, their strength, as well as their location. they are grouped very tightly together, all of them are elite and generally - tank's AoE keeps enough threat on mob not being attacked, to keep them of the healers. but if DPS attack the mob that is not being primarily tanked, high enough dps will pull threat and they are much harder to heal.

that said, on my operative, I tend to keep the probes rolling on a tank at all times. I do that for couple of reasons. it gives me a comfortable cushion, so that I'm not left scrambling to pick tank's health and it builds my tactical advantage stacks, allowing me to control my resources better. but my operative is still leveling, so I may change my tactics once she hits 50 and hardmodes.

at least its easier with sorc/sage. I don't believe shields cause any healing aggro, but they provide the same cushion nonetheless.

edited. personal preference for guard is melee dps. they tend to be the biggest aggro junkies, and guard actually makes them marginally easier to heal.