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Nerf Mercenaries


DarthBloodloss's Avatar


DarthBloodloss
01.29.2013 , 04:25 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by FREDDOSPWN View Post
Those issues have no mechanical impact whatsoever. The problems you are describing can have a range of causes:
1) Bad positioning.
2) More players playing Empire, resulting in more Mercenaries than Commandos (people are more familiar with their animations).
3) The Republic having better PvPers on your server.

Once again, this is a player related - not a game mechanics - issue.

Also, please try and include something on-topic (heat vs ammo) if you continue to post.
Your issues are important but his aren't because they don't affect your toon? I was on board while reading your posts. But then you blamed this on familiarity with animations hehehe

This is true that commando ammo is not equal to merc heat. But don't be surprised when something changes (possibly for the worse) involving offhand accuracy. That's the Empire's version of Merc/Commando inequality. Commando uses 1 weapon, no damage penalty. Merc uses 2, the offhand has low accuracy and which is an indirect damage penalty.
Bloodloss Mercenary
DESTROYER OF WORLDS || KEEPER OF SOULS

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
01.31.2013 , 03:47 AM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by tacito View Post
Out of curiousity I did that, on a vanguard and powertech. Ion Pulse -> Hammer Shots vs. Flame Burst -> Rapid Shots. Until overheated/out of ammo.

Did 4 runs on the vanguard: 31, 29, 32 and 34 Ion Pulse before out of ammo.

Only did 2 runs on the powertech, because the difference is so overwhelming: 50 and 60 Flame bursts, and I wasn't even out of the maximum heat dissipation tier. Just stopped because it got so very boring.

So, while I don't actively play neither powertech nor vanguard most of the time, this changed my mind. When I first read the thread, my first thought was "People will whine about anything", but I now see this as a real concern, and want to state my support for fixing this. Not that it matters, but anyway.
I had the same experience. Let me quote myself from this post: (see the yellow highlight)
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
So I created a new Trooper and Bounty Hunter to test this.

When they reached level 10 I went to the fleet and used the Level 10 Combat Training Target dummy.

Tests were done with 70ms Server Lag and "Ability Action Queue Window" set to "1".

Trooper:
Explosive Round (3 ammo): 5 shots before "out of ammo". (4th shot, wait a tiny bit, 5th shot)
Explosive Round (3 ammo) + Hammer Shot: 6 shots before "out of ammo".
Vanguard: (chose AC, trained Ion Pulse, no talent points applied)
Ion Pulse (2 ammo): 8 shots before "out of ammo".
Ion Pulse (2 ammo) + Hammer Shot: 27 shots before "out of ammo".

Bounty Hunter:
Missile Blast (25 heat): 5 shots before "overheated". (no wait between 4th and 5th shot)
Missile Blast (25 heat) + Rapid Shots: 6 shots before "overheated".
Powertech:
Flame Burst (16 heat): 9 shots before "overheated".
Flame Burst (16 heat) + Rapid Shots: NEVER "overheated". I couldn't for the life of me get heat to go over "20" never mind "overheat". I tried multiple times. Gave up after about 10 minutes. Tried an hour later again, same result.
(NOTE: I retried the equivalent test on the Vanguard multiple times, but on the Vanguard the result was always the same: out of ammo after 27 shots.)

There is definitely a problem here as noted before. Depending on the heat cost, the Bounty Hunter/Powertech has a definite advantage. When spamming only Flame Burst, they can fire off one shot more before "running dry". When spamming Flame Burst and Rapid Shots they never run out of resources (At least not on my test ).

This needs looking into.
There is definitely an issue here that needs looking into.
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

FREDDOSPWN's Avatar


FREDDOSPWN
01.31.2013 , 05:48 AM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBloodloss View Post
Your issues are important but his aren't because they don't affect your toon? I was on board while reading your posts. But then you blamed this on familiarity with animations hehehe

This is true that commando ammo is not equal to merc heat. But don't be surprised when something changes (possibly for the worse) involving offhand accuracy. That's the Empire's version of Merc/Commando inequality. Commando uses 1 weapon, no damage penalty. Merc uses 2, the offhand has low accuracy and which is an indirect damage penalty.
The people I play with can train a Commando using grav round faster than a Mercenary using tracer missile. Does that mean that the Commando's animations are worse?
No, it does not. It means that the people I play with are used to killing Commandos.

Thanks for your support on the heat vs ammo issue.

As I have shown earlier in the thread, a Mercenary that hits with both of his weapons will out-damage a Commando that hits with the assault cannon. The accuracy debuff means that the average damage is roughly equal between the two characters.

Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
I had the same experience. Let me quote myself from this post: (see the yellow highlight)


There is definitely an issue here that needs looking into.
It is always good seeing more people realise how big the discrepancy between heat and ammo truly is. Hopefully we can keep the thread alive and get this issue fixed.

Hiltingp's Avatar


Hiltingp
01.31.2013 , 06:09 AM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by FREDDOSPWN View Post
The reason this is being posted in the PvP forum is because of how this issue negatively affects the Republic in ranked warzones, and contributes to why Commandos (and to a lesser extent, Vanguards) are not picked up in ranked warzones.

The reasoning behind this is very simple. The entire Bounty Hunter class is stronger than the Republic Trooper counterpart because of the way that the resource system has been handled. The other option is to buff the Trooper, but why give up an opportunity to nerf Mercenaries?

The Trooper has high ammo regeneration for 4 ammo, which is 1/3 of the total ammo pool (12).
The Bounty Hunter has high heat regeneration for 40 heat, which is 2/5 of the total heat pool (100).

As many people may notice, 1/3 =/= 2/5.

As a result, Bounty Hunters have a total of 7 more heat to use. 7 heat is not enough for any ability to be cast, it does allow for easier management of heat. Not to mention that 1 ammo is equal to 8 heat (which favours the Bounty Hunter) unless a direct % comparison is available (33 heat fusion missle, 25 heat flame thrower).

Example One:
A Pyrotech Mercenary casts power surge followed by fusion missle. They can then cast rail shot when the GCD is done and be left with 36 heat (0 + 33 = 33, 33 - 5 = 28, 28 + 16 = 44, 44 - 8 = 36) and be in their high heat regeneration zone.

Example Two:
An Assault Specialist Commando that casts tech override followed by plasma grenade and then a high impact bolt will be left with 7 ammo (12 - 4 = 8, 8 + 0.6 = 8.6, 8.6 - 2 = 6.6, 6.6 + 1 = 7.6). They would then be in their medium regeneration zone. They would then regenerate 0.36 ammo and be left with 7.96 ammo and be in medium regeneration for another second.

These examples do not even touch upon the implications of a longer fight. The reason is that two Bounty Hunter 16 heat abilities = 32 heat, two Trooper 2 ammo abilities = 4 ammo which would equate to 33 heat. This would result in the Bounty Hunter getting more casts in a longer fight using the same rotation. Whilst this would rarely happen in a PvP situation, it is still a factor in the class balance.

There are two simple solutions to this mirror class imbalance. The first is to reduce the high heat regeneration zone to 33 heat. The second is to give the Trooper high ammo regeneration until 5 ammo (5/12 ~ 42 heat) which would dramatically improve the discrepancy (2 heat compared to 7). The third solution is to give both classes the same resource system. Since it has not been done in over a year, I doubt it will be done now.

EDIT: Thanks to Holmes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg2o...ature=youtu.be
http://youtu.be/GYvsw8HN654
His two videos to help prove the imbalance.

EDIT 2: Dr_Kid's thread:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...php?p=5770270#

EDIT 3: Dr_Kid's method:


I thought I'd post this as I play a Commando and I'm sick of Mercenaries complaining when they have it so well off. That, and people seem to be too pre-occupied with bubble stun and smash to even notice this issue.
l2p issues
With the Force comes the great Destiny!

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
01.31.2013 , 08:36 AM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Hiltingp View Post
l2p issues
No. This is a "base mechanics" issue.

Try the simple test mentioned in this thread.

I'll summarize it for you:
  • Take a Vanguard and go to a training dummy.
  • Alternate between Ion Pulse and Hammer Shots.
  • Take note of how many Ion Pulses you can get off before you are out of ammo.
  • Now take a Powertech and do the same alternating between Flame Burst and Rapid Shots.

Once you've done that, come back here and tell us how the fact that you can essentially keep firing the above indefinitely as a Powertech and yet run "out of ammo" on a Vanguard is a "L2P" issue.
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

Zakmonster's Avatar


Zakmonster
01.31.2013 , 08:51 AM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post

Once you've done that, come back here and tell us how the fact that you can essentially keep firing the above indefinitely as a Powertech and yet run "out of ammo" on a Vanguard is a "L2P" issue.
Obviously, you should have learned to play a powertech.

Duh.

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
01.31.2013 , 09:10 AM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by Zakmonster View Post
I think it was cleared up a long time ago that Troopers actually use the same system as the Bounty Hunter and it just has a different visual representation (or vice-versa, I can't remember which).

Beyond the fact that one bar goes up and one bar goes down, there is absolutely no difference in numbers or calculations that are going on behind the scenes.

No imbalance found anywhere, no fixes needed.
No not even close. The merc ammo system is not equal to the commandos not including visually. Mercs ammo DOES factually regenerate at a better rate than commandos. This is fact and has been discussed since launch pretty much its been proven over and over again that there is a considerable difference.

That being said. This ammo descrpency only really effects healers since a gunnery commando and its merc counterpart's rotation would not really change. This ammo problem cripples commandos com paired to mercs and makes them the hands down single hardest class to master healing on

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
01.31.2013 , 09:19 AM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
No not even close. The merc ammo system is not equal to the commandos not including visually. Mercs ammo DOES factually regenerate at a better rate than commandos. This is fact and has been discussed since launch pretty much its been proven over and over again that there is a considerable difference.

That being said. This ammo descrpency only really effects healers since a gunnery commando and its merc counterpart's rotation would not really change. This ammo problem cripples commandos com paired to mercs and makes them the hands down single hardest class to master healing on
The devs did say they use the same numbers basically; but the graphical representation is just different. That said; it sounds like this was a BS answer, but the issue should probably be addressed in a more serious manner that doesn't look like a troll thread by saying "Nerf Mercenaries" in the title.

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
01.31.2013 , 09:34 AM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by Zakmonster View Post
Obviously, you should have learned to play a powertech.

Duh.
There is nothing to learn here.

Anyone can use "ability one" then "ability two" then "ability one" then "ability two" until they run out of resources.

The problem here is that:
  1. on the Vanguard, you can do the above about 30 times before you are "out of ammo".
  2. on the Powertech, you can do the above essentially forever without "overheating".

Since the Vanguard and Powertech are mirrors they should work the same and have the same limitations. This clearly demonstrates that this is not the case.

Just try it. Seriously, it doesn't take long to level a toon to level 10. You now even get an experience booster from quests on the starter planets to help you level faster.

Do it and test this.
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

Lord_Karsk's Avatar


Lord_Karsk
01.31.2013 , 09:36 AM | #140
Videos clearly prove powerteck can do more flamebust then vanguard can do ion pulse.

Quote:
Meet the Developers: Rob Hinkle
Quote:
What class(es) do you play the most?

The classes I spend the most time with are a Lethality Sniper and a Pyrotech Powertech, with the Sniper being my “main.”