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Guarding the Healers


slafko's Avatar


slafko
01.18.2013 , 04:33 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Aerilas View Post
From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:
From a tank's perspective: Many people in FP's have no idea how to position themselves and pay little attention to their surroundings. They will break cc even if marked. They will decide the tank doesn't know what to do and aggro unneccessary mobs. They wil stand in the path of a patrolling droid. They will stand beside the droid and get thrown off a bridge. They can't drive their speeders to save their lives.

I'll stop here, I feel I'm getting nervous by just typing this ****.

Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
01.18.2013 , 04:39 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by ElQuesoGrande View Post
Any tank who starts with a taunt on any fight = fail. taunts give 130% threat compared to the current highest active threat on the target. therefore taunts should only be used after using high threat abilities such as slow time or force breach and any other aoes if it's an aoe pull. at that point the 130% threat would mean that the taunt will allow you to keep aggro until the pull is over for the most part, because trash pulls die fast. 130% of 0 threat still = 0% so as he stated, in 6 seconds, someone else is pulling aggro if the tank opens with that ability
What you say about threat mechanics is true, however that doesn't mean that there's no reason to start a pull with a taunt. I'll sometimes use a taunt either to start a LOS pull or to gather melee mobs in order to AOE them. This is particularly useful on my shadow, where my taunt has a greater range than my damage abilities; I do this much less frequently on my powertech who obviously has better ranged damage abilities.
Carilie - Scoundrel // Dastelen - Shadow // Dras'yra - Sniper // Elonie - Sorcerer // Undali - Powertech
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ipagex's Avatar


ipagex
01.18.2013 , 06:07 AM | #43
Wouldn't it be easier to just keep a TPS window in-game and decide after that who's the best choice to guard?

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
01.18.2013 , 06:32 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Ms_Sunlight View Post
What you say about threat mechanics is true, however that doesn't mean that there's no reason to start a pull with a taunt. I'll sometimes use a taunt either to start a LOS pull or to gather melee mobs in order to AOE them. This is particularly useful on my shadow, where my taunt has a greater range than my damage abilities; I do this much less frequently on my powertech who obviously has better ranged damage abilities.
Force Pull - 30m - Instantly pulls target to you and generates threat. If target is immune to physics, it will just generate threat. More threat than Taunt will because 130% of nothing is nothing, and unless you hit it, after 6 seconds there's no guarantee that you'll keep aggro.
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Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
01.18.2013 , 06:33 AM | #45
When I'm on my DPS Sage, I have two Stims, a Fortitude Stim and a Resolve Stim. I make the choice based on whether I'm going to be tanking or not. I have given up on the guard issue. I'll just slow down DPS if I need to drop some threat.
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Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
01.18.2013 , 09:19 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Force Pull - 30m - Instantly pulls target to you and generates threat. If target is immune to physics, it will just generate threat. More threat than Taunt will because 130% of nothing is nothing, and unless you hit it, after 6 seconds there's no guarantee that you'll keep aggro.
...and sometimes if I'm doing a LOS pull to collect more than 1 mob I do not want one of them pulled to me, I want them to all arrive together so I can Slow Time / Force Breach them when they come round the corner or whatever, especially if running with AOE DPS like a sage or commando. Plus, Mind Control has a much shorter cooldown than Force Pull.

I'm not saying I do it in all situations or that it's always appropriate, just that making different use of the abilities open to me does not make me a fail tank. There are lots of ways to get the job done effectively.
Carilie - Scoundrel // Dastelen - Shadow // Dras'yra - Sniper // Elonie - Sorcerer // Undali - Powertech
Server: The Red Eclipse // Guild: The Onyx Guard / The Orbital Guard

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
01.18.2013 , 09:23 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Qvasar View Post
Everyone seems to be in general agreement here, there are of course specific situations where you should guard the healer.

The point however is:
A tank that joins a flashpoint or operation, without any previous knowledge of the other players' skill, who doesn't even bother inspecting anyone, and just slaps a guard on the first healer he can find is doing a poor job.

First and foremost tanks are "aggro" managers, not punching bags as some believe (eg. the guy who once told me his character is "built for taking damage"). Part of that aggro management begins before the fight starts, by assessing the other players.

For example, when I join any group I check the following on every player:
  • What is their guild?
  • Is their stance correct?
  • Do they have all the class buffs?
  • Do they have a stim on?
  • What is the tier of their gear?
  • Is the gear optimized or just stock?
  • Do they have a set bonus?
  • Are the operation introduction quests completed?
  • Are the vehicle achievement quests completed?

These are some of the indicators a tank should be aware of before deciding who to put their guard on, unfortunatly they are overlooked by the vast majority of PuG tanks.
Yea I'll do that all for an operation. For a FP, I usually don't bother with guard until someone proves they need it. If there's a Mara or PT or maybe sniper over like 21k health, I may give em guard, tho usually I just look at it as a challenge to see if I can hold threat without.
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Brutal's Avatar


Brutal
01.18.2013 , 09:33 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Gwence View Post
this is because you start blasting heals on tank the instant they agro a pack

if you're not cc'ing anything, 1 dmg ae from the tank should be enough to keep adds off the healer for the whole fight.

keeping them off dps is another story of course
on my merc heal i puled agro lots of times off tank depending on a grup build my merc have 61-63 gear most of hm fp in a grup with columi players i will pull agro easy

DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
01.18.2013 , 09:43 AM | #49
[QUOTE=Qvasar;5736520]

Amusing fact: I once had a tank tell me to "stop taunting"... on a sentinel...


I always hit the big DPS with Guard, and understand what you are talking about, but do you know how many Guardian DPS do not use Focused Defense to help keep their threat down?
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu

DarknessInLight's Avatar


DarknessInLight
01.18.2013 , 09:45 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Brutal View Post
on my merc heal i puled agro lots of times off tank depending on a grup build my merc have 61-63 gear most of hm fp in a grup with columi players i will pull agro easy
If you're pulling aggro as a healer, then there is something seriously wrong with the DPS you bring with you. I have a 61 geared tank and I have run with 63 geared dps and healers and they NEVER pull aggro. It's all about how you use your abilities.
Jedi do not fight for Peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading, as slogans always are. Jedi fight for Civilization, because only Civilization creates Peace. - Jedi Master Mace Windu