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Mc_Gregor's Avatar


Mc_Gregor
01.18.2013 , 04:11 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by wetslampigduex View Post
The added power and surge goes right out the window as soon as one of those RS misses and it will miss. Also switching enhancements out to gain accuracy you don't lose any power, your just stopping yourself from hitting massive diminishing returns with surge. Know what dropping most of that surge will do? It's only going to drop the crit on your RS by about 200 total damage.
That's what I meant to say, guess I wasn't clear enough. Dropping surge from like 79% to 77% to get accuracy to say, 98% is really a small tradeoff.

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FeralPug
01.18.2013 , 08:13 AM | #32
Dropping surge will not only drop railshot crit by 200 or so points per shot. It drops the intensity of the crits on everything, including those bread and butter abilities that are not governed by accuracy at all. A few percentage points matter when you're talking about a high power build. Every point of power makes surge that much more valuable. Given that suge affects every damage ability you have, and accuracy only affects RS and rapid shots, it's a no brainer: surge is way more important to us than accuracy, especially considering the stacking of power.

I don't pretend to understand all of the math. I honestly think it's a lot more complicated than forum pundits make it out to be when factoring in expertise of multiple opponents, defensive cooldowns, debuffs and other factors that we deal with in WZ's. The only real way to know the effectiveness of a build/loadout is to see it's results on the ground in both WZ's and training dummies.

I will say this: 4/6/31 with full power has been the best build and gearing loadout that I've run both in terms of TTK and in terms of raw output. I'm sitting at ~1580 Aim and 1475 power. I have a 96% accuracy on my RS. I have spent millions and millions of credits trying different builds and gearing. I'm 100% convinced that 4/6/31 is the premier spec for PT.

Surrendering thermal detonator for a full 9% steely resolve build is absolutely insane. I wouldn't run a pyro that didn't go full 31 on my ranked team. It would defeat the purpose of the class. We represent unpredictable spike damage. That's it. If you take that away, I'd rather have a smash juggy or carnage mara in place of a pyro. 6% main stat increase is what you're left with if you want to go full 31 pyro. 6% is simply not good enough to warrant stacking aim over power.

No other build has allowed me to hit 76,000 damage in under 30 seconds with any consistency. Full Power 4/6/31 allows me to do this.

The hidden beauty in this gearing is that when you switch gearing to combat tech to run AP in HB or for door defense on VS, you can get a high 1700's Aim and high 1200's power with 200 crit. This has allowed me to get 74k damage in 30 seconds running AP in Ion cylinder. It's a beastly build for 1v1's if you are every inclined to run in a tourney where concealment operatives and assassins abound.

High power also has the affect of making your non-crits hit very hard. In a sense, it allows you to rely less on RNG. I like this since we're a prisoner of RNG to some extent with our RS procs. I don't like leaving everything to chance. If I don't crit, my target is still going to be sent to the respawn room.
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wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
01.18.2013 , 08:31 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by TirjacShiki View Post
ehhhh this should be corrected. To be clear, im not arguing that the 4/6/31 spec is BETTER than your 7/3/31 spec, my guildies run that and it balances out in some different ways.

But if youre wanting crit for all of these TECH attacks that the guy mentioned, you would be better off with 4/6/31, this spec gives you a higher TECH crit and a little bit lower RANGED crit. the 7/3/31 spec gives you a higher RANGED crit and a lower TECH crit.

And the tiny bit of extra damage you get from the 7/3/31 is balanced out by the extra damage you get to your FIRE abilities, which is about 50% of your damage.

I wouldn't say one is definitively better than the other, i personally prefer the power 4/6/31 build.

But if you want to do what that guy said, have a higher crit for your thermal detonater, flame burst, etc, all TECH attacks, you would be a fool to not run the 4/6/31 spec. I don't think he actually read what those 'useless talents' in the middle do.

EDIT: but like i said in an earlier post, i agree with the accuracy, you need at least 94-96%
I don't know man. Just by looking quick at my askmrrobot pvp profile, which is not even full WH and the results are going to go more in my favor the more gear you get. Just by switching specs to the 4/6/31 build your guildies are using i lose 182 aim. Now full WH or EWH your going to be losing 200-250 i don't know maybe even 300 total aim by not taking the 6% in steely resolve. To trade that for a 6% increase to tech crit and 3% dmg increase to FB(without doing the math) seems like a pretty easy choice to me. Not to mention(assuming i did the spec correct) you lose 3% dmg to your rail shot as well.

Sippix's Avatar


Sippix
01.18.2013 , 01:36 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by wetslampigduex View Post
I don't know man. Just by looking quick at my askmrrobot pvp profile, which is not even full WH and the results are going to go more in my favor the more gear you get. Just by switching specs to the 4/6/31 build your guildies are using i lose 182 aim. Now full WH or EWH your going to be losing 200-250 i don't know maybe even 300 total aim by not taking the 6% in steely resolve. To trade that for a 6% increase to tech crit and 3% dmg increase to FB(without doing the math) seems like a pretty easy choice to me. Not to mention(assuming i did the spec correct) you lose 3% dmg to your rail shot as well.
In Steely Resolve builds, you actually lose Ranged Bonus Damage versus Max Power builds. That means, with a Steely Resolve build, you Rail Shot is not hitting as hard. The ONLY thing Steely Resolve builds give you more of is Ranged Crit and Tech Crit for TD ONLY. Otherwise, Max Power gives better Ranged/Tech Bonus Damage and better Tech Crit for Elemental effects.
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TirjacShiki's Avatar


TirjacShiki
01.19.2013 , 03:40 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
In Steely Resolve builds, you actually lose Ranged Bonus Damage versus Max Power builds. That means, with a Steely Resolve build, you Rail Shot is not hitting as hard. The ONLY thing Steely Resolve builds give you more of is Ranged Crit and Tech Crit for TD ONLY. Otherwise, Max Power gives better Ranged/Tech Bonus Damage and better Tech Crit for Elemental effects.
I dont really feel like typing out a big response to you wetslampig or whatever your name is, but pretty much every word this guy said is 100% wrong.

Just spewing incorrect facts, its nuts.

Anyways

To make a long story short, youre right, you definitely get higher bonus damage numbers with the 7/3/31 build, so of course your railshot will be hitting harder (by a very small amount).

The mistake most people make in these builds is not taking into account how much damage your fire effects do, railshot is not the main source of damage for a pyro. The fire effects, Flame Burst, CGC proc, Flamethrower, IM will all make up close to 50% of your total damage output. So that extra 9% crit to those that you get from the 4/6/31 build is pretty huge.

This is why i said i wouldnt consider one spec better than the other because its a pretty balanced trade off.

With 7/3/31 you get a tiny bit more bonus damage, a tiny bit more ranged crit chance, and you give up 3% tech crit chance + 6% fire crit chance that you get from the 4/6/31 build. (remember, the 6% fire crit chance doesnt show up anywhere in your stats)

I don't judge people for taking one spec over the other because they are both decent specs. Just different ways to play.

UncleOst's Avatar


UncleOst
01.23.2013 , 12:13 PM | #36
Just for fun I switched power augs to aim, still using a full power build without steely resolve. I snagged only 1 point from RS damage increase, and instead put 3 into increased fire damage. I also swapped my power crystals for crit ones.

The reason why I did this was because on a test dummy with full power build/power augs, I would go like 8 or 9 shots without a crit! lol. I know this is simply bad luck but c'mon that's ridiculous..:even with the eliminator set bonus. When I can I'll post a vid, just so you could see how poorly RS would crit.

So far my plan was to focus on more fire damage with higher crit chance, and maybe rely less on railshot(even though I use it religiously). I must say, with lower max hit numbers in warzones(marginal), I've found nice total damage overall.

Crit is about 29, surge is around 77-78, accuracy is 96.
Lmao am I nuts? Has anyone else tried this?

Sippix's Avatar


Sippix
01.23.2013 , 02:30 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by TirjacShiki View Post
I dont really feel like typing out a big response to you wetslampig or whatever your name is, but pretty much every word this guy said is 100% wrong.

Just spewing incorrect facts, its nuts.
You replied to me, but refer to Westlampigdeux in your post. Not sure which guy you're trying to call out. lol

Quote: Originally Posted by TirjacShiki View Post
With 7/3/31 you get a tiny bit more bonus damage, a tiny bit more ranged crit chance, and you give up 3% tech crit chance + 6% fire crit chance that you get from the 4/6/31 build. (remember, the 6% fire crit chance doesnt show up anywhere in your stats)
Here's the difference between going with 7/3/31 Steely resolve (using Aim Augments) and 4/6/31 Max Power (using Power Augments). I used the exact same class buffs, stims, companion bonuses, datacrons and mod types on both profiles. Look at the bonus damage between them for yourself. Plus the Max Power build STILL gets a higher Elemental crit bonus, which is what damage type you use most in between bursts.
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wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
01.23.2013 , 03:38 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
You replied to me, but refer to Westlampigdeux in your post. Not sure which guy you're trying to call out. lol



Here's the difference between going with 7/3/31 Steely resolve (using Aim Augments) and 4/6/31 Max Power (using Power Augments). I used the exact same class buffs, stims, companion bonuses, datacrons and mod types on both profiles. Look at the bonus damage between them for yourself. Plus the Max Power build STILL gets a higher Elemental crit bonus, which is what damage type you use most in between bursts.
Honestly, looking at this more the trees don't really make a difference. Give n take depending on your playstyle i suppose. The issue i had with you is telling people to go to 0% accuracy and hardly any crit. Cool all your base abilities hit for a couple 100 dmg higher. But, as soon as you miss or i crit a couple extra times the lil bit of extra damage you do goes out the window. PvP ehhh may work out for you, but honestly you miss a RS trying to burn a healer theyre gonna take another 15-20 seconds to kill. Pve most def dont wont 0 accuracy missing a RS kills dps.

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Evuo
01.23.2013 , 06:55 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
You replied to me, but refer to Westlampigdeux in your post. Not sure which guy you're trying to call out. lol
He was warning wetslampigduex about your statements, because they are mostly incorrect.

Power has a greater damage coefficient per point of than Aim. At a 1 to 1 ratio of Aim to Power, and even given maximum skills and/or buffs to increase that ratio in favor of Aim, power will yield more bonus damage. However, the only place a 1 to 1 tradeoff of Aim to Power can occur is in augments.

All things considered (augments, gear, datacrons, buffs, stims), a player is going to have more main stat than power at endgame (not a 1 to 1 ratio). Therefore, when you add skills to increase the amount of Aim you have the bonus damage gain is going to increase beyond what an unmodified build would give you, even one using power augments over aim.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
Here's the difference between going with 7/3/31 Steely resolve (using Aim Augments) and 4/6/31 Max Power (using Power Augments). I used the exact same class buffs, stims, companion bonuses, datacrons and mod types on both profiles. Look at the bonus damage between them for yourself. Plus the Max Power build STILL gets a higher Elemental crit bonus, which is what damage type you use most in between bursts.
How about you stop trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes and post profiles that are compareable to your point?This is the second time in this thread that you've done this.

No, the Mod in the feet is not the same. Though you did not mention implants being the same in that quote, it's going to make a difference using alternative implants between each profile. If you want to draw a comparison between profiles where augments and spec are the variables, then everything else needs to be the control.


Here is your max power profile you posted earlier:
http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...a-3ebb3aa9b288

Here is the 7/3/31 with aim augments profile correctly made for comparison (only spec and augments changed): http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...4-34da39e1826f

The second has more bonus damage, more ranged crit, less tech crit regardless of it being an elemental attack.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sippix View Post
In Steely Resolve builds, you actually lose Ranged Bonus Damage versus Max Power builds. That means, with a Steely Resolve build, you Rail Shot is not hitting as hard. The ONLY thing Steely Resolve builds give you more of is Ranged Crit and Tech Crit for TD ONLY. Otherwise, Max Power gives better Ranged/Tech Bonus Damage and better Tech Crit for Elemental effects.
So the greater ranged crit was the only thing you were correct about. That is probably why TirjacShiki said you were "just spewing incorrect facts."

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Megatfx
01.23.2013 , 09:28 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Malds View Post
Ok enough of ths full power crap. Ive had enough of seeing people try to teach others how to ruin their powertechs.

30 - 31% crit chance including buff should be standard for pvp. Why? Because your thermal detonator, flame burst, explosive dart and dots hit for nothing without crits...period.

96 - 97% accuracy. Take some enhancements with power/accuracy and accuracy on implants for this. Why? If your railshot misses, your burst is completely nulified.

75-77% surge is fine, stacking it is just giving you horrible diminishing returns so take those accuracy and power enhancements once you hit around 75 surge.

Take steely resolve to at least 2 points and take full aim augments. Why? This increase your bonus damage and gives you crit so the middle skill buffs are worthless.

Im a ranked pvper. Take my advice if you want, your choice.

Seriously, full power is a joke. Just sayin'
What he said, I run the same exact setup. I'm at 644 ranged bonus damage, 1000 tech bonus damage, 76.83% surge, 28% ranged crit, 30.5% tech crit, 19,300 HP, and 1396 expertise. If I run a 1214 expertise build like the OP I have about 685 ranged bonus damage and like 1040 Tech bonus damage, but the survival difference between 1396 and 1214 expertise I've noticed is massive.