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Rules of looting blatendly disregarded?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Community Content
Rules of looting blatendly disregarded?

Akiviri's Avatar


Akiviri
01.01.2013 , 01:55 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by ziphii View Post
But with your system, I get stuck with an item I can't use or don't need, while some other team member gets the thing I needed, and they can't use. Not the best outcome, even if it has a sense of "fairness" to it
The problem is that we can't 'fix' it ourselves short of a 'need everything' approach and sort it out later - if possible. Unless enough people send in tickets about it - devs are unlikely to bother with it, as they have enough stuff to work on as it is - (HINT, HINT devs)

Having said that - there is no end to the problem, as the problem is people rather than design. If they used an approach where people just got handed their tokens (for example) to get items - then the ***** would be "people who don't contribute get their tokens for doing nothing, that isn't fair" wah wah wah - or something else would be the problem - albeit the loot issue would be solved insofar as everyone gets what they need. The problem is - people are individuals, and some don't see the need to contribute, play fair, STAY OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES QUEST ITEMS etc etc - so essentially, the problem will continue so long as other people play. Sometimes I wish PvP were optional, with looting, when someone is just being a douche.

Mattriss's Avatar


Mattriss
01.02.2013 , 10:21 AM | #42
@OP. There was a very large outcry about this issue during launch. PLayers were busy getting their companions geared, when for all intents and purposes the companions were "next to useless" at cap. I view it as no different than RNG working against you, and some players feeling that their game time is more important than your game time. While technically true everyones game time is more important than someone else when viewed subjectively it is still inconsiderate.

Grammarye's Avatar


Grammarye
01.02.2013 , 05:54 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Akiviri View Post
there is no end to the problem, as the problem is people rather than design.
Yes, the problem is people, however the people complaining in this thread aren't looking in the mirror enough either. If you invested half the energy of this thread into educating people about etiquette, and communicating those unspoken conventions up-front when you group with someone, or heck just communicating at all in a polite manner, most of the problem would be solved. Certainly those for whom it's their first MMO and they don't know some EQ etiquette from the 90s.

You can't stop people being total jerks, but that's always a small number compared to those who just aren't prepared to communicate and be pleasant & polite about these things.

Besides, people post as though there's one social convention for this because they happened to have only played WoW. There isn't. Not by a long shot. There was at launch a far longer far more contentious thread about just how many there were in truth, and the end result was 'tell people your preferences upfront when you group'. If you're the group leader, you have no excuse at all. A few seconds spent at the start of a PUG saves a lot of ranting later.
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Akiviri's Avatar


Akiviri
01.02.2013 , 07:51 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Grammarye View Post
If you invested half the energy of this thread into educating people about etiquette, and communicating those unspoken conventions up-front when you group with someone, or heck just communicating at all in a polite manner, most of the problem would be solved. . . .
If people don't understand NOT to waltz in and snag a quest item from behind a boss someone is killing - then I don't know what to say.
If people don't understand they need aim by level 30 - or even 20 - rather than willpower on their merc, and therefore "NEEDing" that orange/purple/blue chest that clearly says "willpower' in the stats - then I don't know what to say.

If people are so socially obtuse that they don't understand a group means you all go after the same goal, therefore communicating what that goal might be before you slap a group invite on someone would be a good idea - then I don't know what to say. That part in itself is just as stupid as spamming guild invites at people all day. If your guild is so sad you have to dredge for members - then I sure as **** don't want any part of it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Grammarye View Post
You can't stop people being total jerks, but that's always a small number compared to those who just aren't prepared to communicate and be pleasant & polite about these things.
Small? Not where i'm playing. People are running around all over the place with no thought for anyone else but themselves. Yet I should accept a group invite? These same people litter chat with crap, troll newbies, and generally just make a nuisance of themselves - yet I should wade into that and try to 'communicate and be pleasant and polite' with them? /ignore works much better thanx - anything else is a waste of time.

BobaTed's Avatar


BobaTed
01.03.2013 , 07:57 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Grammarye View Post
Yes, the problem is people, however the people complaining in this thread aren't looking in the mirror enough either. If you invested half the energy of this thread into educating people about etiquette, and communicating those unspoken conventions up-front when you group with someone, or heck just communicating at all in a polite manner, most of the problem would be solved.
Right, because that's worked like a charm over the past decade or so...

Nope, the only games in which I don't see this issue are those games in which the need / greed system is absent - or where the game's population is so small and tightly knit that social censure actually means something (but that's bad for business).

Are there more misguided nice guys than jerks out there? Sure. Are most people amenable to explanations and such? Probably. But that just suggests to me that the jerks are jerks by choice, because they can be - because the game design not only allows it but rewards them for it. And those are the people who generate complaints like the OP's.

So, again, let's just remove the issue from the equation. Replace "need / greed" with something that doesn't reward greed. Will there still be jerks out there? Certainly, but you'd be surprised at how much jerkiness disappears when A) it's constrained, and B) it's no longer motivated by self-interest.

DoctorJest's Avatar


DoctorJest
01.03.2013 , 09:38 AM | #46
Here's what you do.

Have the team leader set the parameters for Need and Greed and inform the team members of them when they join.
Have the team leader kick anyone who violates those parameters after 1 warning.

Done.

Social problems have social solutions.

DoctorJest's Avatar


DoctorJest
01.03.2013 , 09:40 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
But that just suggests to me that the jerks are jerks by choice, because they can be - because the game design not only allows it but rewards them for it. And those are the people who generate complaints like the OP's.

So, again, let's just remove the issue from the equation. Replace "need / greed" with something that doesn't reward greed. Will there still be jerks out there? Certainly, but you'd be surprised at how much jerkiness disappears when A) it's constrained, and B) it's no longer motivated by self-interest.
There's no patch for jerks. Jerks will always be jerks, and no matter how much you change the mechanics, they'll still find ways to be jerks. The only defense is to identify them as jerks then /ignore them.

BobaTed's Avatar


BobaTed
01.03.2013 , 10:00 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by DoctorJest View Post
There's no patch for jerks. Jerks will always be jerks, and no matter how much you change the mechanics, they'll still find ways to be jerks. The only defense is to identify them as jerks then /ignore them.
In my experience, most jerks are lazy and opportunistic. The jerks who roll "need" on everything aren't necessarily going to try to find a replacement outlet for their jerkiness if they can no longer roll "need" on stuff.

DoctorJest's Avatar


DoctorJest
01.03.2013 , 10:31 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by BobaTed View Post
In my experience, most jerks are lazy and opportunistic.
In my experience, they're opportunistic, but many are actually quite industrious about finding ways to be jerks. I've seen many griefers work overtime to try to find new ways to be exploitive to other players.

Quote:
The jerks who roll "need" on everything aren't necessarily going to try to find a replacement outlet for their jerkiness if they can no longer roll "need" on stuff.
I don't agree. I think if they're motivated to be jerks, then they'll find a way to be jerks. Jerks are the ones who find exploits and ways to grief players, no matter how obscure. You don't discover that sort of thing without concentrated effort.

Sure, if there is an easy route they'll take it, but never in the history of the internet has any game, system, medium, or fora been able to implement a technological automated solution weed out jerks and their jerkiness. Further, technological attempts to weed out jerks often have unintended consequences that hurt non-jerks as well.

Communities, however, have been far more effective in policing jerks. Social problems have social solutions.

BobaTed's Avatar


BobaTed
01.03.2013 , 10:57 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by DoctorJest View Post
In my experience, they're opportunistic, but many are actually quite industrious about finding ways to be jerks. I've seen many griefers work overtime to try to find new ways to be exploitive to other players.
If they're that dedicated, chances are they've already found new exploits. Seriously, how can you exploit a system that, say, gives everyone an equal and independent means of acquiring loot, in such a way that isn't being exploited? Hint: Saying "they'll find a way" is a cop-out.

Quote:
Communities, however, have been far more effective in policing jerks. Social problems have social solutions.
Which is why we've have these threads on a regular basis, in this and other games, for over ten years, right?

You can't fix people. But, sometimes, you can fix mechanics. Not sure why you're implicitly defending the current system when it clearly rewards jerky behavior and when alternatives are clearly available.