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The Clone War's Canon Conundrum

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The Clone War's Canon Conundrum

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.22.2012 , 03:33 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by JBFett View Post
Okay. I will admit, I lost interest in the show rather quickly once they started spiting out canon contradictions left and right. I have seen the trailers for Season 5, and I hope they actually let the "bad guys" win, but lets be honest, in a kids show the bad guys never win. They haven't they won a single time in the episodes I've watched of the series. I am not an avid watcher of the series, because every time I try to get into it I find myself disappointed by how bad it is.

Finally, I don't think you have read the comic series put out by Dark Horse about the Clone Wars if you say that the writing on The Clone Wars is better than the writing of those comics. I urge you to either pick up the TPBs, or download, the issues of Star Wars: Republic, Star Wars: Dark Times, and Star Wars: Obsession. After read Sidious ing those, you can not tell me that the staff at The Clone Wars has a better understanding of what Star Wars truly is than the wonderful artist at Dark Horse.
I agree with you on the bad guys front. But this is the face of Star Wars - the bad guys never win. I prefer to console myself by thinking no matter what happens, Sidious will always win. I'd also strongly urge you to watch Season 5, they've really improved on the bad guys front, heroes are dying, bad guys are winning (Savage & Maul) and Sidious is set making personal appearances, and we know he will always win. Even General Grievous was given a half-victory in Hondo arc. And I have a feeling many more heroes are going to be killed (Ashoka might even turn to the dark side/die) But remember, Star Wars is about the heroes triumphing over evil. Don't forget that.

On your second point I was probably wrong on the writing front, I can say for sure its better than a good proportion of EU works at least. But my point is their good at writing Star Wars. We also have to remember how small EU is in the Star Wars universe. Canon dictates they don't have to pay it any real attention and we should count ourselves lucky that they do. Think of all the things they have implemented that are entirely EU creations. Asajj Ventress, the Nighsisters, every other planet, Death Watch, the Ones, I'm sure the list goes on. As a George Lucas project he has the right to tweak the stories a litte. And so what if he does? You should really be thanking him that he included this stuff in the first place. I'm also aware that Dark Horse Comics have significant involvement in the series, and Filoni is well versed in the EU, just saying.

P.S. No one really has a greater understanding of Star Wars than George Lucas - you may not like it, but thats what Star Wars is

JBFett's Avatar


JBFett
12.22.2012 , 04:35 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I agree with you on the bad guys front. But this is the face of Star Wars - the bad guys never win. I prefer to console myself by thinking no matter what happens, Sidious will always win. I'd also strongly urge you to watch Season 5, they've really improved on the bad guys front, heroes are dying, bad guys are winning (Savage & Maul) and Sidious is set making personal appearances, and we know he will always win. Even General Grievous was given a half-victory in Hondo arc. And I have a feeling many more heroes are going to be killed (Ashoka might even turn to the dark side/die) But remember, Star Wars is about the heroes triumphing over evil. Don't forget that.

On your second point I was probably wrong on the writing front, I can say for sure its better than a good proportion of EU works at least. But my point is their good at writing Star Wars. We also have to remember how small EU is in the Star Wars universe. Canon dictates they don't have to pay it any real attention and we should count ourselves lucky that they do. Think of all the things they have implemented that are entirely EU creations. Asajj Ventress, the Nighsisters, every other planet, Death Watch, the Ones, I'm sure the list goes on. As a George Lucas project he has the right to tweak the stories a litte. And so what if he does? You should really be thanking him that he included this stuff in the first place. I'm also aware that Dark Horse Comics have significant involvement in the series, and Filoni is well versed in the EU, just saying.

P.S. No one really has a greater understanding of Star Wars than George Lucas - you may not like it, but thats what Star Wars is
I'll have to argue with you on Star Wars being about Good Triumping evil. While the Original Trilogy is about Good vs Evil, I don't think the EU should be bogged down by this idea. It's a big universe, many things can happen, and keeping everything in black and white causes most things to be boring. Also I'd like to point out that the prequel trilogy is anything but good vs Evil when you take a closer look at it beyond Jedi vs Sith. If anything the Clone Wars is Evil vs Evil. The Republic is lead by Sidious, the CIS is lead by Sidious.

Also I'll have to argue that I don't think George Lucas has the best understanding of what Star Wars is, not anymore. While he did lay the foundations of the Universe, much better minds have seen to it in the intervening years. Infact, I believe at one point George admitted that he has no idea what happens in the universe outside his movies, and that he has never read any EU material. Also I know that Fillion says that he has a deep understanding of the EU, but if he does he pays no mind to it. As pointed out earlier, he has directly contradicted the EU multiple times. Maybe I'm just trying to say that for a long time everyone associated with Star Wars has stressed that they try to create a continuous canon, free of contradiction, however since the Clone Wars was released numerous violations of this promise have happened. The most plausible people to blame for this are both Fillion and Lucas, as they are the heads of The Clone Wars project. I just think they should practice what they preach, if they care about the EU at all.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.22.2012 , 04:57 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by JBFett View Post
I'll have to argue with you on Star Wars being about Good Triumping evil. While the Original Trilogy is about Good vs Evil, I don't think the EU should be bogged down by this idea. It's a big universe, many things can happen, and keeping everything in black and white causes most things to be boring. Also I'd like to point out that the prequel trilogy is anything but good vs Evil when you take a closer look at it beyond Jedi vs Sith. If anything the Clone Wars is Evil vs Evil. The Republic is lead by Sidious, the CIS is lead by Sidious.

Also I'll have to argue that I don't think George Lucas has the best understanding of what Star Wars is, not anymore. While he did lay the foundations of the Universe, much better minds have seen to it in the intervening years. Infact, I believe at one point George admitted that he has no idea what happens in the universe outside his movies, and that he has never read any EU material. Also I know that Fillion says that he has a deep understanding of the EU, but if he does he pays no mind to it. As pointed out earlier, he has directly contradicted the EU multiple times. Maybe I'm just trying to say that for a long time everyone associated with Star Wars has stressed that they try to create a continuous canon, free of contradiction, however since the Clone Wars was released numerous violations of this promise have happened. The most plausible people to blame for this are both Fillion and Lucas, as they are the heads of The Clone Wars project. I just think they should practice what they preach, if they care about the EU at all.
Hmmmm, perhaps your right. But I'd give them a second chance, at least in terms of story - they are definitely beginning to take a new direction. And yes in many ways Lucas has lost his way. But Filoni is in charge of the project and he knows what he's doing. Should they stay true to the EU? That's the main question I feel. Why should they if they can make it better?

I think this is the perspective we have to look at it from. Have they improved it by making changes. IMO on the Mandalorian front - yes. They've added new faces and sides to the Mandalorians and just made them all the more interesting. Same goes for Ventress, before she was just a Rattaki Jedi. Now she's a lost child of the Dathomirian Nightsisters, and only surviving member (minus Talzin) betrayed by the Sith and know a mercenary with nothing to belong to. I like that better than another Jedi gone darkside who eventually turns into a loco crazy cyborg and gets semi-killed then runs away. Adi Gallia's death and all other retconned deaths are kinda just a shoulder shrug, they died, just now they died a little differently. Dooku's backstory? How has that been altered? Pretty sure EU established he was from Serenno. But I get your point, I imagine many sources filled had already filled the Clone Wars gap, and TCW are probably steam rolling over everything established. But Star Wars is always evolving to suit the 'real world' and we just have to accept that.

JBFett's Avatar


JBFett
12.22.2012 , 05:07 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Hmmmm, perhaps your right. But I'd give them a second chance, at least in terms of story - they are definitely beginning to take a new direction. And yes in many ways Lucas has lost his way. But Filoni is in charge of the project and he knows what he's doing. Should they stay true to the EU? That's the main question I feel. Why should they if they can make it better?

I think this is the perspective we have to look at it from. Have they improved it by making changes. IMO on the Mandalorian front - yes. They've added new faces and sides to the Mandalorians and just made them all the more interesting. Same goes for Ventress, before she was just a Rattaki Jedi. Now she's a lost child of the Dathomirian Nightsisters, and only surviving member (minus Talzin) betrayed by the Sith and know a mercenary with nothing to belong to. I like that better than another Jedi gone darkside who eventually turns into a loco crazy cyborg and gets semi-killed then runs away. Adi Gallia's death and all other retconned deaths are kinda just a shoulder shrug, they died, just now they died a little differently. Dooku's backstory? How has that been altered? Pretty sure EU established he was from Serenno. But I get your point, I imagine many sources filled had already filled the Clone Wars gap, and TCW are probably steam rolling over everything established. But Star Wars is always evolving to suit the 'real world' and we just have to accept that.
Okay. You make some good points. What they have done to the Mandalorians I can agree with, as long as the Death Watch wins in season 5. I suppose your also right about Ventress, though I wish they would have given a better introduction to the Dathomir story than just "Yea, Assajj is actually one of them. Oh, and Maul and Oppress are actually their slaves." Just seems like a cheap shoe-horn to me. *shrug* Why are all the Nightbrother's Zabrak? Also, they need to leave Aurra Sing alone, but at the same time I want to see a mention of A'Sharad Hett thrown in there, just for the Legacy fanboys
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BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
12.22.2012 , 07:10 PM | #15
Are you seriously so angry over the DH Comics?


THose were some of the worst comics in SW in my opinion.
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JBFett's Avatar


JBFett
12.22.2012 , 07:45 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
Are you seriously so angry over the DH Comics?


Those were some of the worst comics in SW in my opinion.
What? You must be trolling, or have no idea what your talking about. You say 'were', it can't be 'were' if they still are publishing Star Wars material. Also the only other comics you have to compare Dark Horse's work to are the terribad Marvel ones, so you can't tell me they're "some of the worst comics in SW" unless you find that mid-80s crap good.
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GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
12.22.2012 , 09:08 PM | #17
I don't really follow the series, but I don't see how Asajj being a Nightsister is a good thing. Before the series reinvented her, she had a great storyline, what with being Padawan to a Jedi who died in battle, which caused her fall to the Dark Side. Her youthful naivete became a strong character theme later on, what with her self proclamation of being Sith and her utter devotion to Count Dooku, despite the fact he was manipulating and using her. Furthermore, though she is a fierce combatant, she never showed much strength in Force abilities. Then they shoehorned in the fact that she was a Nightsister - Force Witches who are pretty much dedicated to the use of the Force through rituals and powers. It seems...really clunky, and only for the purpose of the Savage Oppress/Maul backstory, rather then a logically drawn conclusion. Furthermore, we see some serious changes in her personality through the series that also seem to contradict her naive, aggressive nature.

There's a very strong existing parralel between her and Anakin - I see her as what Anakin could have become if not for Obi-Wan - and her own relationship with Kenobi himself is really heavily immersed in resentment (that Anakin's master is alive, while her own died), and some really strong elements of sexual chemistry depending on the writer at the time. The Clone Wars seems to just...ignore all that depth, and that's a shame. It's also a shame that she's been reduced to essentially a henchman role by the show, when realistically she could very well have been the focal 'Big Bad' for most of the series.
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BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
12.22.2012 , 10:32 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by JBFett View Post
What? You must be trolling, or have no idea what your talking about. You say 'were', it can't be 'were' if they still are publishing Star Wars material. Also the only other comics you have to compare Dark Horse's work to are the terribad Marvel ones, so you can't tell me they're "some of the worst comics in SW" unless you find that mid-80s crap good.

I was comparing it to non-SW Comics, seriously though, the SW Comics are not done well and maybe is why they might go back to Marvel.


http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...vel_149417.asp
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

JBFett's Avatar


JBFett
12.22.2012 , 10:48 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
I was comparing it to non-SW Comics, seriously though, the SW Comics are not done well and maybe is why they might go back to Marvel.


http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...vel_149417.asp
I disagree, if anything almost all of Dark Horse's Star Wars lines over the past 20 years have been moderate-good, I suggest you pick up Legacy, Dark Times, and Republic just to name a few stand outs. The only notably bad one they've done was Dark Empire from when they first obtained the license.
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MishraArtificer's Avatar


MishraArtificer
12.22.2012 , 11:02 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by JBFett View Post
I disagree, if anything almost all of Dark Horse's Star Wars lines over the past 20 years have been moderate-good, I suggest you pick up Legacy, Dark Times, and Republic just to name a few stand outs. The only notably bad one they've done was Dark Empire from when they first obtained the license.
Before Legacy, before Dark Times, and before Republic, go burn the $40 or $50 and buy the Tales of the Jedi Omnibus collections from BAM or Barnes and Noble or wherever. The Knights of the Old Republic comics featuring Zayne Carrick weren't bad, either.

Never got to read any of Dark Empire. How bad were they?
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