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A.P.T. for PvP (Anti Smash J.O.A.T.)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Bounty Hunter > Powertech
A.P.T. for PvP (Anti Smash J.O.A.T.)

af_raptura's Avatar


af_raptura
12.17.2012 , 06:50 PM | #11
I am currently running something similar, except that I pick up all the points to get the +9 to aim. Maybee i'll never get into a ranked team, but fun is still a good goal. And I am sure healers appreciate an extra guard.
PvE theorycrafting has really loosened their standards.
Quote: Originally Posted by karlwaite View Post
As for the skill changes to benefit pvp likes of the fly by damage reduction they suffered and reducing focused defence by 200% is a joke they are affecting pve to benefit pvp.

NurseDonut's Avatar


NurseDonut
12.18.2012 , 08:21 AM | #12
I've been running something similar for the last few days. I switch between ion cylinder and high energy cylinder depending on the situation (never mid-fight though). Ion cylinder is for when an objective needs to be held, or a team-mate guarded. High energy is for when we need more damage.

I love the versatility. And it is decent against the now standard swarm of smash monkeys. The AoE damage reduction helps, and prototype flame thrower helps bring them down.

Last night I was over 400k damage and 200k protection a few times.

Krozis's Avatar


Krozis
12.20.2012 , 07:51 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by FeralPug View Post
Wouldn't it be cool if specs like the one above were actually viable?

It's a shame that it's not. Here's why:

-you'll overheat very fast.
-the shield mechanic is crappy, only mitigating a little bit of damage from two out of the 4 damage types.
-it's not pyro

AP, even though it looks more survivable on paper, is really not much better than pyro due to a lack of energy rebounder. I find that I actually end up having less deaths as full pyro because I can kill opponents faster than with AP. AP, in all its forms, is gimped. Shieldtech is gimped. We have one spec and that's full, 31 point pyro.

I've dueled our guild healers with every spec under the sun. These are superb healers, and are among the server's best. There is only one spec that is head and tails above the others for bringing spikey, unhealable burst to bear on a single target: 31 point pyro. Anything less is a sub-par "fun" spec

It's not a good thing that we have one viable spec, as I've been saying for months, but that's the state of powertechs right now. I don't see it changing any time soon unfortunately.
I had to quote the first response because I think it's pretty bang on. Although I do think you get a bit of decent benefit out of shielding... but that's another debate.

HEAT is a factor in this build. If it isn't, it's because you have too much 'filler' in your rotation. Which equates to lethargic damage.

Whether we like it or not, we are a one spec PVP class. Bioware did this... Time to Death is far too short, burst is king. Do I like it? Nope. But it's been crammed down our throat since the change to Expertise.

For the record I just came off an evening of playing Advanced Prototype before seeing this post. I love it, it's fun as heck but Sooooo flaky. There are tons of Shadows/Assassins on my server that know as soon as the little arm flamey thingy pops out they just bump me, and there goes about 80% of my DPS for the next several seconds.

Now you're taking a very second rate DPS spec, and making it third rate by changing the cylinder out for a tank cylinder. At best this is for rolling pugs in non-ranked.

Again the quote above is right about our survivability....we really don't have much, the big difference between us and a Mercenary? Our survivability is simply bolstered by our ability to burst down our opponent before they do it to us. This spec removes that. (The thought of out surviving someone in this spec is hard for me to take in today's game.)

I'm glad you're trying this out... really I am. It shows BW we need something else.... I'm not asking to be like a Shadow with 27.8 hybrid builds but having more than one would be awesome.
̿̿'̿̿\̵͇̿̿\= Formerly from a big guild that is now hundreds of tiny guilds. =/̵͇̿̿/'̿̿ ̿ ̿
Krozis \ Vintego \ Vint

FeralPug's Avatar


FeralPug
12.20.2012 , 02:36 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Krozis View Post
I had to quote the first response because I think it's pretty bang on. Although I do think you get a bit of decent benefit out of shielding... but that's another debate.

.
Oh, I agree with you, but the real advantage in shielding only comes with the shielding buffs in the shieldtech tree. With shield chance and absorb increased, a fully geared shieldtech can be a bear. It's still the weakest tank spec for PVP in the game, and no rated team worth it's salt runs one that I know of.

Just an interesting aside:

I ran a parser on my AP build yesterday (pure dps AP with HECG). I did 72k damage in 30 seconds. My pyro build does 75k in 30 secs. On paper these builds seem very close to each other in terms of output. I can see why a developer who is looking at numbers might assume that these specs are comparable.

Of course, as we all know, they are not comparable in an actual warzone due to many factors including the fact that the centerpiece damage dealer in AP is a channeled cone subject to latency, and to stuns.

As for survivability while running AP with ion, it appears more survivable on paper. In a real WZ against skilled players where focus is the name of the game, you might last half a second longer than a pyro, but you trade an absolute truckload of damage for this half second. AP is also subpar in other aspects of PVP. If you need a fire puller, a tankassin is better because they can pull out of stealth. If you need a ball runner, again AP loses to tankassin, immortal juggy and even to full shieldtech tank. You can't really guard against good focus because you don't have the shieldtech talents to absorb damage. In short, AP (regardless of cylinder) is gimped all the way around in survivability, damage and utility, compared to other classes.

Pyrotech is the only true PVP spec we have. Our one saving grace is that pyro is one of the most potent PVP specs currently in the game: no one can touch our spikey damage. This is probably why PT's don't get much sympathy in terms of having only one viable spec for PVP. Folks shrug and tell us to just suck it up and play the OP burst spec we've been blessed with since launch.

But that don't make it right!

In my view, an interesting approach to rebalancing would be to make AP an anti-stealth spec. I'd make immolate the centerpiece instead of flamethrower, and put in some stealth detection abilities. What about a "tripwire" tech ability that would allow an AP to set up a multiple point stealth detection perimeter? This would allow AP to be useful from a competitive perspective, without upping the damage too much. It would also provide a much needed counter to tankassin hybrids, who currently enjoy absolute dominance in terms of node capping/guarding from stealth. Currently, a rated team can't function without a talented tankassin. I don't think teams who can't field one should be punished, and there desperately needs to be a counter.

Just thoughts from someone who loves the playstyle of AP, and also is completely and utterly frustrated ever time I play it
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Evuo's Avatar


Evuo
12.20.2012 , 03:47 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by FeralPug View Post
Just thoughts from someone who loves the playstyle of AP, and also is completely and utterly frustrated ever time I play it
So true. I enjoy playing AP the majority of times I play it for a change of pace or will switch to it from pyro if the situation calls for it (i.e. I'm pugging a huttball and I see our team has plenty of snipers, mercs, operatives, or any of lackluster carriers who aren't gonna get the job done).

The flamethrower thing drives me absolutely crazy. A spec that should be more mobile than pyro (with the passive cylinder speed boost, and hydraulic overrides) has to sit there and channel an ability that is subject to direction, position, and to internet latency (causing it to have those times of doing half the ticks it should or nothing at all).

Additionally, bubble stun has complete dominance over this spec at the moment.

LordExozone's Avatar


LordExozone
12.21.2012 , 09:23 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Evuo View Post
Additionally, bubble stun has complete dominance over this spec at the moment.
A lot of rubbish has been said in this topic, but this is absolutely true. None of my characters suffer so much from bubble stun as my AP powertech.

As for viability, I'm playing a 7/31/3 spec, using Combustible Gas Cilinder, which with the guaranteed proc from flameburst makes the spec significantly more bursty than normal AP, at the cost of overheating faster.

The spec does viable DPS & burst. I can put pressure on war hero geared healers, and can kill those that have not fully min/maxed their gear or are not so good, on my own. The best healers on my server I cannot solo, I will overheat.
Pyrotech generally does better vs healers and ranged classes, with AP doing better vs melee classes. Unsupported Pyrotechs struggle with rage juggernauts and marauders, AP eats smashers for breakfast. Good assassins are of course still a no-go, but at least you can get away as AP due to Hydraulic Overrides.

Hydraulic Overrides is fantastic. It adds significant survivability and mainly offensive power due to having a significant uptime of unhindered mobility.

As for prototype flamethrower. Every disadvantage said in this topic is correct, and personally I feel even after the buffs the damage is still not good enough for such an unreliable ability. However it provides some interesting utility, many are the times where I have slowed 5 players to a crawl in voidstar allowing my team to plant a bomb. It is also a decent kiting tool vs melee. The damage it does is good, and I've had situations where all ticks critted and I'd do like 9k damage in 3 seconds time + the instant 2.5k damage from immolate that follows.
It takes practice to use flamethrower correctly, after 6 months of playing AP in PvP my succesrate on flamethrower is much higher than when I first tried the spec.

For ranked I would advice Pyrotech, as when well supported the burst of that spec is king. I have played AP in ranked matches and did good, doing top damage and killingblows of both teams, but perhaps I'd have done even better as pyro, its hard to say for sure. For pugs in normal warzones I'd recommend AP. It's fun, and is a bit more self-reliable. Also, the retractable blade animation is fantastic

1 tip: Do not use a shield generator. Since most of AP's attacks are tech-based, you loose too much damage by dropping your power generator. A shield equals only about 2% damage reduction, the dps loss is much more, perhaps as high as 5-7%. Juggernaut hybrids can get away with using a shield since most of their main attacks are weapon based and thus not so much affected by the huge drop in +force power from dropping their generator (only their force scream, choke and smash are affected). Powertechs unfortunately not so much.
Kote! Kandosii sa kar'ta, Vode an.
Mandalore a'den mhi, Vode an. Bal kote, darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome. Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, Vode an.

Epix's Avatar


Epix
12.30.2012 , 06:49 PM | #17
make the buff also make flame thrower able to be channeled while moving

Nanarchist's Avatar


Nanarchist
01.02.2013 , 11:38 PM | #18
Bubbles stuns are 4m ranged, almost all you spells are 10m so if you practice well you placement you can pretty much dodged all of them.

I play this spec from a while now in ranked play, and i have no trouble. I am on the top dps at each game while having a lot of prot with the guard (and healers loves me). The heat is kinda hard to manage when your new to the spec, but become more comfortable with the time and experience.
Still do less burst and monotarget damage than pyro, but i last longer and help more my team than i did as a pyro.

Forgot to mention that this spec is A LOT MORE usefull in Huttball, with lower CD on grab, OP godmode, the extra tankiness and mobility and the guard.
Killeen Spree - Spécialiste (8/31/2) - Battle Meditation
Midnight

LordExozone's Avatar


LordExozone
01.03.2013 , 05:16 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Nanarchist View Post
Bubbles stuns are 4m ranged, almost all you spells are 10m so if you practice well you placement you can pretty much dodged all of them.

Right up to the point where you use your stacked prototype flamethrower, are forced to stand still, and the target or one of his bubbled friends gets in the AOE cone <4 meters. Happens extremely often with AP and its so annoying.
Kote! Kandosii sa kar'ta, Vode an.
Mandalore a'den mhi, Vode an. Bal kote, darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome. Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, Vode an.

Nanarchist's Avatar


Nanarchist
01.03.2013 , 07:58 AM | #20
True, still a pain in the *** for the FT but since i stay away from bubbles i rage less on them
Killeen Spree - Spécialiste (8/31/2) - Battle Meditation
Midnight