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The force is becoming magic?


internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.11.2012 , 02:30 PM | #1
This has bin on my mind for some time.
And i like some other people's thoughts on the mather.

It seem to be that in the extended universe the force is becoming more like magic(resurection, everlasting life, possesion etc)
While all nicly explained it does seem to move more and more away from all-binding energie and becoming more plot magic.

For example: the sith emperor,
He is able to jump bodies, kill a entire planet to become inmortal(my theory is that he is still mortal just got alot of life energie from drianing a planet of life and it will take several thousend years for him to die, unless he feeds on more(lets say a entire galaxie)) able to mind control strong willed people at ease.

Now i dont know about you but that sounds alot like necromancy to me.

To me what makes the force alot more interesting then magic is that it HAD rules.

It wasnt able to break the laws of nature just bend them.
Example: A force user might be able to force jump on a clif or the second floor but never on a entire mountian/building(something jaden korr keeps doing)
Or only mind trick the weak willed(not strong willed people)
Or how darth nillus was able to "feed" on a entire world(again necromancy:blood magic) yet befor the extended universe we need thing's like the death star to blow up a entire world(let me put it very clearly darth nillus was able to kill millions of lifeforms(plants animels people) in a single force attack and he wasnt even that strong in comparision to many other sith).

Is it just me seeing thing's that arent there.
Or is the force becoming magic?
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.11.2012 , 02:42 PM | #2
The Force is able to do pretty much anything, given that the person has the knowledge, the willpower and the determination. I kinda covered it here in this thread.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559943

There hasn't been shown any limits to what The Force is capable of, the only thing that limits The Force is the user themself(well guess you can also count force related beasts and all that too I suppose), but on a more personal level its the former. The Death Star was more for fear then blowing up worlds btw.

I mean are you gonna believe, that an old man destroyed a world? Or are you gonna believe a battle station with a super laser can?
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

internaty's Avatar


internaty
12.11.2012 , 03:05 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The Force is able to do pretty much anything, given that the person has the knowledge, the willpower and the determination. I kinda covered it here in this thread.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559943

There hasn't been shown any limits to what The Force is capable of, the only thing that limits The Force is the user themself(well guess you can also count force related beasts and all that too I suppose), but on a more personal level its the former. The Death Star was more for fear then blowing up worlds btw.

I mean are you gonna believe, that an old man destroyed a world? Or are you gonna believe a battle station with a super laser can?
Thanks for the link.
knowledge is power.
use it well.

Good players take any and all advantages they can get, actually. It's why they are good.

LegendaryBlade's Avatar


LegendaryBlade
12.11.2012 , 03:25 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
The Force is able to do pretty much anything, given that the person has the knowledge, the willpower and the determination. I kinda covered it here in this thread.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559943

There hasn't been shown any limits to what The Force is capable of, the only thing that limits The Force is the user themself(well guess you can also count force related beasts and all that too I suppose), but on a more personal level its the former. The Death Star was more for fear then blowing up worlds btw.

I mean are you gonna believe, that an old man destroyed a world? Or are you gonna believe a battle station with a super laser can?
The force may have no theoretical limits but nobody has ever been able to use them for quite the extent you seem to be insinuating. Sidious and Galen Marek(Starkiller) are among the most powerful force users in Canon, and it took everything Malek had to pull down the Stardestroyers. Then there's the guy in your thread who force owned a bunch of Star Destroyers, but it literally killed him and it's the greatest feat i've read about.

EU Luke has done some impressive things, like control his descent so he can survive a freefall from the upper atmosphere, but I think even he walked away with a broken arm. The Death Star's ability to destroy worlds was both intimidating and practical; it put fear in people and had the capability to put down wars before they could even get off the ground(literally).

EDIT: On topic! Yes, the force is becoming more and more magic-esk. It's been going that direction for awhile though. I vastly prefer the way it was presented in the original trilogy as this ever present mystical force that, while it helped you feel the world around you and do amazing things, didn't turn you in to a super hero. That said, I don't really mind the direction it's gone in to as a whole, even with the force witches and all of that. The Jedi are super powered, but they aren't invincible and I feel like there are a lot of good writers out there that do an amazing job showing this.
Star Trek Online Science Officer - "To boldy go where no man has gone before."
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daemain's Avatar


daemain
12.11.2012 , 03:40 PM | #5
I think one of my biggest problems with the implementation of the force in this game revolves around how fast force users learn abilities. Now, from a technical and realistic game mechanics perspective I completely understand why Bioware implemented force powers like they did.

However, I feel like players, NPCs, mobs, etc. seemed to use the force WELL above the abilities I envisioned from the main six movies and in some cases the other misc. pieces of media (comics, books, etc.).

An example...at level 10 as a Sith Assassin I was able to shock and use lightning...abilities I have always envisioned as something taking a lifetime to master. Healing...something I only know of Darth Plagueis and potentially Darth Sidious to have any remote expertise in. Yet relatively low level characters can heal.

I think you can read into this statement and say something along the lines as it being a vulgar display of power but I have never seen Darth Vader, Darth Sidous, or Yoda do anything near what my level 50 Assassin can do with the force save Yoda with some impressive object moving. Those were supposed to be some of the strongest force users to ever live. Yet alone fairly strong force users such as Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker, etc.

I'm completely on-board with the thought of anything being possible with the force. I just don't think an apprentice should be shooting out force lighting all over the place like it was nothing.
Daemian

LegendaryBlade's Avatar


LegendaryBlade
12.11.2012 , 03:52 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by daemain View Post
I think one of my biggest problems with the implementation of the force in this game revolves around how fast force users learn abilities. Now, from a technical and realistic game mechanics perspective I completely understand why Bioware implemented force powers like they did.

However, I feel like players, NPCs, mobs, etc. seemed to use the force WELL above the abilities I envisioned from the main six movies and in some cases the other misc. pieces of media (comics, books, etc.).

An example...at level 10 as a Sith Assassin I was able to shock and use lightning...abilities I have always envisioned as something taking a lifetime to master. Healing...something I only know of Darth Plagueis and potentially Darth Sidious to have any remote expertise in. Yet relatively low level characters can heal.

I think you can read into this statement and say something along the lines as it being a vulgar display of power but I have never seen Darth Vader, Darth Sidous, or Yoda do anything near what my level 50 Assassin can do with the force save Yoda with some impressive object moving. Those were supposed to be some of the strongest force users to ever live. Yet alone fairly strong force users such as Darth Maul, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker, etc.

I'm completely on-board with the thought of anything being possible with the force. I just don't think an apprentice should be shooting out force lighting all over the place like it was nothing.
Unfortunately SWTOR isn't a very good game if you're a lore buff. You could probably make an entire thread on lore inconsistencies alone, and I bet you could get an entire rant out of people on what they did to poor Meetra. Infact, didn't Meetra rebuild the council at the end of KOTOR II? How come that is never mentioned anywhere at all?

The rate and way in which you gain powers in SWTOR is definitely over the top. They could of easily put some of the well known powers further back in level, but I imagine it was done the way it was for gameplay and level balance, as well as to please fans of the series who just want to, ahem, gigglesquee when they see the powers.

I do think, in terms of story, it is actually meant to take place over a longer span than we play. We may play for a few hours, but it'd be several days to the character. By the time you've finished your class story it's probably been a year, or at least it seems that way judging from the way the character has advanced and the dialogue.

I imagine it could be argued that Revan and Meetra both learned powers very quickly, but I thought it was made rather clear in both KOTOR games that they were actually re-learning powers that they had forgotten or lost the ability to use. It even just says it outright in KOTOR II
Star Trek Online Science Officer - "To boldy go where no man has gone before."
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BrianDavion's Avatar


BrianDavion
12.12.2012 , 01:54 AM | #7
Meetra DIDN'T rebuild the council, she left after reven and he students rebuilt the Jedi.

Also just because she did that doesn;t mean they have to go into a long winded song and dance about it.
SW is noteable in that people don't go into full on explination at the drop of the hat (HOW LONG did it take us to learn what the clone wars where?)

Lagboot's Avatar


Lagboot
12.12.2012 , 03:23 PM | #8
Yes sir you nailed it.
All this kiddie EU and Cannon nonsense has perverted the true Star Wars universe. As I predicted, when all this first started, as George saw too, things would go sour with cartoons and stupid writers. He never accepted and or wanted the EU or Cannon.
Star Wars was Star Wars.
Episode 4, 5, & 6 and 1, 2, & 3.
As expected the EU started out mild and ok (even though I hate it), but pushed the "superhero" aspect on Force and Dark side users.

Yeah It has become "magic" and totally out of control. I truly believe the Force and or Dark side DOES have limitations and cannot be used to be "god" in that sense, as portrayed in the current EU.

I am an old school Star Wars fan I grew up with it. I was so happy George didn't go the route of Star Trek and make miniseries and crap TV shows about Star Wars early on. It preserved what the movies were and didn't pervert the universe. The cannon and EU did just that years later and is still doing it.

Really...A single being can crush a planet with the force ....BS. That is dumb. And like stated by someone else earlier. The force only works fully on the weak minded and un trained. AS in controlling their body, speech and such. Spewing lightening is a one or 2 off from force users in full force and isn't really a continual use ability. The main feature of a Jedi or Sith is their ability to use and wield a Saber in combat. Force push objects and people to gain an advantage.
Sometimes utilizing the force powers for an escape maneuver.
The whole perversion of the EU and Cannon is a disgrace to Star Wars and what it was.
Do, or do not............there is no try.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.12.2012 , 03:30 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by BrianDavion View Post
Meetra DIDN'T rebuild the council, she left after reven and he students rebuilt the Jedi.
What? Revan had no hand in rebuilding the Order, he killed Malak, got basically banished from the Jedi Order by the council and then left with Canderous, after this, the Sith Triumvirate attacks the Jedi Order and becomes one of the best Jedi killing Sith organisations of all time, then the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik comes along and wipes out the Sith Triumvirate, at the same time she simultaneously trains six Jedi Padawans who become the Disciples of Surik and they rebuild the Jedi Order, the Exile laid the foundations and then her students rebuilt the structure.

Oh and by the way, Revan didn't have students as a Jedi.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
12.12.2012 , 03:33 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by LegendaryBlade View Post
The force may have no theoretical limits but nobody has ever been able to use them for quite the extent you seem to be insinuating. Sidious and Galen Marek(Starkiller) are among the most powerful force users in Canon, and it took everything Malek had to pull down the Stardestroyers. Then there's the guy in your thread who force owned a bunch of Star Destroyers, but it literally killed him and it's the greatest feat i've read about.
Your right none have used The Force to very high extents, but with The Force its entirely possible. There is just never really a need to destroy a world, I mean why would you really want to anyway? With all the things that a Jedi or Sith(with enough knowledge and training) can do using The Force, I don't see what anything isn't possible. I mean Luke stopped TIME itself...well ok he didn't exactly stop time in the room but he froze everything in the Jedi cafeteria during a food fight.

I mean sure, he realized the Chosen One's potential so all of what Luke can do not every single jedi or sith can do that. But the point being is, Luke and Sidious have set the bar extremely high on what The Force can do and there hasn't been shown any limits(aside from the user themself) of what it could do.

A jedi or sith however, even if they are not Luke or Sidious could still show something new that hasn't been done before.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.