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Kaggath Series: Skere Kaan vs Naga Sadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Skere Kaan vs Naga Sadow

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.10.2012 , 04:56 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
This is why I was trying to argue the Battle Meditation point. :P

I'm still skeptical about the illusions. What are their limitations?
Limitations? None that I know of. Naga Sadow could create what ever he could imagine. Concealed within his meditation sphere, Naga Sadow could envision the entire galaxy. He could create vast fleets, powerful armies, and unstoppable warriors. The illusions themselves are only limited by Naga Sadow's imagination. This is how he was able to wage war on the Republic with but a small army. He created illusions on several worlds simultaneously, even Coruscant and the Jedi Order wasn't safe. If not for Gav Daragon, Naga Sadow could have conquered the galaxy.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.10.2012 , 05:09 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Limitations? None that I know of.
Ok, this made me question these illusions enough to go off and do my own research.

There is no evidence that these illusions are good warriors.

The only indication of their power is this quote from Wookieepedia:
"Sadow formed great illusions on the battlefields of Koros Major, Coruscant and Kirrek, creating mirages of war beasts and Massassi troops, weakening the resolve in his Jedi and Republic opponents, as well as those planets' civilians."

Resolve? Sounds like a real threat....

If these illusions are created by Sadow, he must need to control them. Controlling "limitless" illusions would mean they weren't effective at all. Just because they CAN harm Republic troops does not mean they actually did to a great extent. Instead, they probably just looked scary in the background.

Basically, while these beasts could touch troops, there is no way Sadow could control them with such finess as to make each and every one a skilled warrior. The ILLUSION of being outnumbered by sith forces may have hurt the resolve of the Jedi, but that does not mean his imaginary armies would have been able to actually defeat the Republic troops in combat.
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.10.2012 , 05:17 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Ok, this made me question these illusions enough to go off and do my own research.

There is no evidence that these illusions are good warriors.

The only indication of their power is this quote from Wookieepedia:
"Sadow formed great illusions on the battlefields of Koros Major, Coruscant and Kirrek, creating mirages of war beasts and Massassi troops, weakening the resolve in his Jedi and Republic opponents, as well as those planets' civilians."

Resolve? Sounds like a real threat....

If these illusions are created by Sadow, he must need to control them. Controlling "limitless" illusions would mean they weren't effective at all. Just because they CAN harm Republic troops does not mean they actually did to a great extent. Instead, they probably just looked scary in the background.

Basically, while these beasts could touch troops, there is no way Sadow could control them with such finess as to make each and every one a skilled warrior. The ILLUSION of being outnumbered by sith forces may have hurt the resolve of the Jedi, but that does not mean his imaginary armies would have been able to actually defeat the Republic troops in combat.
Very true. However, your speech is filled with "maybe" and "perhaps" (Kreia reference lol )

Do not forget that the Jedi were being beaten until Sadow's concentration was broken. In the short war that was The Great Hyperspace War, Naga Sadow was winning. It wasn't until Gav Daragon attacked Naga Sadow's meditation sphere that the Jedi and the Republic swept Naga Sadow's forces aside and gained victory.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
12.10.2012 , 05:21 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Very true. However, your speech is filled with "maybe" and "perhaps" (Kreia reference lol )

Do not forget that the Jedi were being beaten until Sadow's concentration was broken. In the short war that was The Great Hyperspace War, Naga Sadow was winning. It wasn't until Gav Daragon attacked Naga Sadow's meditation sphere that the Jedi and the Republic swept Naga Sadow's forces aside and gained victory.
Well yes, of course I'm speaking in "maybe"s, seeing as I have no real proof to point to and say AH HA! but only wookieepedia.

Question: Was Sadow really winning? Or did it just LOOK like he was winning due to the illusions?

What was the Republic's casualty count?
~~ AiR ~~
What are you more afraid of?
A weapon that could destroy you?
Or a weapon that could turn you into a monster?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.10.2012 , 05:32 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Well yes, of course I'm speaking in "maybe"s, seeing as I have no real proof to point to and say AH HA! but only wookieepedia.

Question: Was Sadow really winning? Or did it just LOOK like he was winning due to the illusions?

What was the Republic's casualty count?
Sadow was pretty much winning. Was him winning just an illusion? Perhaps. I don't think so. Normally an illusion will do no damage, but Naga Sadow had enhanced his illusions with Sith magic, turning them into real soldiers.

But was he really winning? His forces had been pushing the Republic around quite a bit. During the initial invasion, the Republic took some heavy casualties. The illusions gave the sense that he was winning. In every battle, the illusions were doing most of the legwork. Naga Sadow had a small army at his command. Not a lot of Sith warriors and beasts, so the illusions made up the majority of his forces. I think he was winning, but the scale at which he was winning is not that large. He would have won eventually, but he probably would have suffered the loss of a majority of his living soldiers.

Edit: Yes Naga Sadow was winning. Particularly in the Battle of Coruscant. His illusions had forced the Jedi and Republic forces back several times. All hope was lost until his illusions suddenly faded. Once the illusions vanished, the Republic wiped out Sadow's forces.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Segastorm's Avatar


Segastorm
12.10.2012 , 07:46 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The illusions gave the sense that he was winning. In every battle, the illusions were doing most of the legwork. Naga Sadow had a small army at his command. Not a lot of Sith warriors and beasts, so the illusions made up the majority of his forces.
meaning that if Sadow were to be found, Kaan would have a much larger advantage, but did Naga Sadow really need to be near an unstable star to project his illusions with such skill?

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
12.10.2012 , 08:17 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Segastorm View Post
meaning that if Sadow were to be found, Kaan would have a much larger advantage, but did Naga Sadow really need to be near an unstable star to project his illusions with such skill?
No. At the time, that star wasn't on any mapped hyperspace route, so no one except his Apprentice (one of the two Republic explorers who stumbled upon Korriban) knew it's loction and where to find him. Naga Sadow could be anywhere and still done the illusions. It was just safer being in a place that no one in the Republic knew how to get to. Except, as said, that brother and sister who discovered it.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.11.2012 , 12:43 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
This is why I was trying to argue the Battle Meditation point. :P

I'm still skeptical about the illusions. What are their limitations?
Well, I gather the Jedi eventual saw through them, so I assume if that happened they would lose some of their advantage. And Kaan may be able to use his battle meditation against them, or to help his forces see through the illusions - I'm not sure.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
12.11.2012 , 12:56 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well, I gather the Jedi eventual saw through them, so I assume if that happened they would lose some of their advantage. And Kaan may be able to use his battle meditation against them, or to help his forces see through the illusions - I'm not sure.
In order to truly affect the illusions with Battle Meditation Kaan has to wage a war of wills with Naga Sadow. I think we can all agree that Kaan would lose a mental battle with the Sith Sorceror.

Now note that the Battle of Coruscant was a bloodbath until Naga Sadow was attacked by Gav Daragon. The Jedi and Republic forces were being pushed back throughout the whole battle. These illusions are not fake. Naga Sadow's use of Sith magic allowed him to make them real soldiers. This means that Naga Sadow literally has a limitless army. Kaan's forces will put up a long struggle, but will eventually lose.

Edit: We should also note that the Jedi only realized that Naga Sadow was using illusions after they had faded when Sadow lost concentration.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.11.2012 , 01:02 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Question: Was Sadow really winning? Or did it just LOOK like he was winning due to the illusions?
Lol that made me think: Sadow conquers the galaxy and its all happy and yay for the Sith, Sadow's like "guess I'm done here" and breaks his meditation. Suddenly all around the galaxy soldiers and fleets dissappear and it turns out the only planet Sadow actually conquered was Tatooine...

As for the weakening of resolve thing, I expect Kaan's battle meditation would counter that