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Empire or Republic?


pan_sObak's Avatar


pan_sObak
12.07.2012 , 04:46 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by khayyinx View Post
First, why do you play as Empire?
they have all cookies!
and red lightsabers too...

Quote: Originally Posted by khayyinx View Post
or as Republic?
To burn out the Galaxy for the Greater Good!
oh, it's another galaxy...

Quote: Originally Posted by khayyinx View Post
What if all the sith emperors were good? What if instead of palpatine the emperor was a sith that just tried to make the galaxy a better place to everyone?
there is only justice when everyone is equally unsatisfied!
Tomb of Freedon Nadd, Pansobak Legacy
Merc 55, Jugg 55, Seer 55, Guns 55, Vang 55, Commando 55

Craft: Bio 450, Cyber 450, Arm 450, Armor 450, Art 450, Syth 450- no use of them!

Diablo_Cow's Avatar


Diablo_Cow
12.07.2012 , 09:52 AM | #12
I mainly play on the Empire side for a few reasons, the majority of them are vanity reasons.

The first and biggest would be that my Sorcerer was my first 50 toon I had achieved and because of that I know more people on the Empire. The second is the animations, the animations for the Republic characters feel dry and empty to me, they lack the visual flare (I especially love lightning from sorcs ). The third reason is playing through the Empire story multiple times and only playing the Republic toon once, I noticed there is a lot less corruption in politicians on the Empire side. I don't necessarily agree with the whole genocide hysteria the Imps have, but I appreciate the lack of corruption. I am also beginning to think that the people of the Empire themselves and not the Sith are not all that bad. Throughout the agent story line its the Sith and other force-users who seem to cause a lot of the problems the galaxy faces, take away the Sith, and the Empire is actually full of good people. Finally the biggest vanity reason is the ship design of Imperial ships. I hate the Republic Hammerheads more than anything else. With the more classic Star Destroyer designs of the Empire, I like to play them more.

armphid's Avatar


armphid
12.07.2012 , 07:34 PM | #13
I play mainly Republic, but I have a few Empire characters as well. I will openly say that I am heavily Republic leaning in my play and personal philosophy. The only reason I play Empire at all is because of friends of mine who play that side that I want to talk to/game with.

I've noticed that most of the pro-Empire posts here have to insert hypotheticals or brush off parts of Imperial doctrine/culture that undermine their argument. IF the Emperor was good, IF the Sith were fair and noble minded. IF this and If that. They aren't; no amount of what ifs will change that.

The reality is that the Empire is rabidly xenophobic and genocidal, elitist to an extent that even humans who can't use the Force are second class citizens and can be slain on a whim by their Sith overlords, and that any social mobility is an illusion unless you're a Sith. Because even if you're a Moff, some punk Sith can still decide to part your hair with a lightning bolt and it's his right to do so. And even if you are Sith, you can be murdered by your fellows (who are encouraged to do so) if they want your stuff and it will be institutionally ignored. Playing Empire side, I've lost count of how many missions I've had to do that are all the result of Darth Ponderous or Lord Pretensor's grudge/pet project/cause being put forth and dozens/hundreds/thousands of lives and millions of credits wasted by the Empire. That seems pretty corrupt to me.

The OP also castigated the Republic for allowing slavery in other governments but the fact that the Empire openly enslaves hundreds of millions of people is all right somehow. There is no slavery in the Republic; it is illegal and those who practice it are criminals who are pursued and prosecuted when caught. If there is slavery in parts of the galaxy that are not part of the Republic, it is not their job to make other governments do what they want. They control their territory, their citizens, and their laws, not that of other people.

The Republic is flawed; there's no such thing as a perfect government of any kind but any one that is based on the activity and will of the populace will be as flawed as people are. The Republic as an institution is more fair, more open, and more capable of change and advancement. There will be corruption, because some people are corrupt but it's not the institutionalized and accepted corruption of the Sith Empire. The corruption can also be expunged more easily; in a democracy, the government can be overthrown whenever the populace wants it to be and change effected. If the people want it and are willing to buckle down and do it, all the structures and systems are in place to effect change. It's not that it is perfect but that it can be that way if the people try hard enough. Reformers in the Republic build support, win small victories and build on them, gaining momentum until change is effected. Reformers in the Empire are killed.

In the Empire, there's no reason to want to change anything and even if you did, there's no way to do it without a coup d'etat, the structure doesn't support that kind of thing. The more terrible parts of the Empire are, in fact, essential for it's functioning. The Empire needs slavery; it couldn't afford to do all the things it does if it had to pay for all that work/food/equipment. The Empire needs xenophobia because it keeps the ruling class from completely disintegrating into paranoid massacres that would fracture it immediately; it creates a boogeyman for them all to unite against. The Jedi and the Republic work the same way for that purpose. The Empire's evil is part of the institution and thus any attempt to change it would have to fundamentally remake the institution itself.
"It's a shallow life that leaves few scars." -- Garrison Keillor

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
12.07.2012 , 08:14 PM | #14
Some people forget that not everyone in the Empire is xenophobic, homicidal and/or genocidal. There are a number of people whose views/beliefs differ than that of the rest of the Empire. This was seen very early on Dromund Kaas in the Dark Temple. You speak with the image of an ancient Sith Lord who followed the Light Side and who was killed by the Emperor for preaching teachings different than that of the Emperor's.

You have the General in the Black Talon flashpoint who turns against the Empire because he knows of the horrors that'd come about if another war happened. There's Elara Dorne the Trooper Companion who is an Imperial that defected to the Republic because her beliefs about the Empire and the Republic changed and she knew that senseless killings were wrong. And there are many more examples. Such as some Sith companions speaking of Apprentices in the Sith Academy focusing on the Light Side and looking for means to either leave and study freely or try and stay to help others see a different path. And these decisions were all made on their own without Jedi conferring with them.

The Agent storyline also shows us that there are entire groups in the Empire who are not xenophobic and who will willingly bring Aliens into their divisions in order to increase their numbers and efficiency. Imperial Intelligence has members that are not human and it is because they have skills that will help the Empire and are treated as Assets, not slaves.
CE Owner: ...what? I wanted the music. I like music.
Statement: SGRA's - I support them. Do you have a problem with that, Meatbag?

BradTheImpaler's Avatar


BradTheImpaler
12.10.2012 , 11:25 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
I've noticed that most of the pro-Empire posts here have to insert hypotheticals or brush off parts of Imperial doctrine/culture that undermine their argument. IF the Emperor was good, IF the Sith were fair and noble minded. IF this and If that. They aren't; no amount of what ifs will change that.
"Hypotheticals" are important to consider, because civilizations aren't static.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The reality is that the Empire is rabidly xenophobic and genocidal, elitist to an extent that even humans who can't use the Force are second class citizens and can be slain on a whim by their Sith overlords,
As someone else said, there are those trying to reform the Empire to change this. While there may be no outright massacres of aliens in the Republic, to say there's no xenophobia would be absurd.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
and that any social mobility is an illusion unless you're a Sith.
If you're one of the millions (maybe billions) in Coruscant's undercity, or aren't part of the nobility on Alderaan, then your lack social mobility is all but guaranteed. In the Empire, if you prove your patriotism and ability to contribute, then you may advance (although there are obvious barriers to this as well).

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
Because even if you're a Moff, some punk Sith can still decide to part your hair with a lightning bolt and it's his right to do so. And even if you are Sith, you can be murdered by your fellows (who are encouraged to do so) if they want your stuff and it will be institutionally ignored.
Not exactly. The Empire has to put up a united front against the Republic on some level. You can't just go around slaughtering all the Moffs you want without consequences to morale etc., and while you are right about many of the Sith, they are capable of working together when necessary.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
Playing Empire side, I've lost count of how many missions I've had to do that are all the result of Darth Ponderous or Lord Pretensor's grudge/pet project/cause being put forth and dozens/hundreds/thousands of lives and millions of credits wasted by the Empire. That seems pretty corrupt to me.
Not sure what you mean by this. The "pet projects" I've seen are of some benefit to the Imperial war effort. If they somehow hold it back for personal gain, they won't last long.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The OP also castigated the Republic for allowing slavery in other governments but the fact that the Empire openly enslaves hundreds of millions of people is all right somehow. There is no slavery in the Republic; it is illegal and those who practice it are criminals who are pursued and prosecuted when caught. If there is slavery in parts of the galaxy that are not part of the Republic, it is not their job to make other governments do what they want. They control their territory, their citizens, and their laws, not that of other people.
You mean "if" they're caught. Clearly groups like the Black Sun or the Exchange can and have operated under the Republic's nose. The Republic is also trying to win the Hutts' favour just as much as the Empire, and the Hutts are known slavers. There is also a moral argument to be made that "There is no such thing as an innocent bystander"---i.e. if the Republic doesn't even attempt to bargain with the Hutts to free slaves, but actually goes out of its way to ignore slavery when trying to win the Hutts' favour, they are complicit.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
there's no such thing as a perfect government of any kind but any one that is based on the activity and will of the populace will be as flawed as people are.
Says you! Seriously, though, neither government is based on the will of the people. The difference is that the Empire doesn't pretend to be. Before you can have that kind of government, though, you need stability. The Republic is too bloated and corrupt, with too many different interests trying to pull its strings to be stable or effective.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The Republic as an institution is more fair, more open, and more capable of change and advancement.
It's not more fair or open to all of its citizens living in poverty. It's not more fair or open to those living under monarchies like on Alderaan or Naboo. The Empire is capable of change because it takes action. When the Republic takes action, it struggles to present a united front, as some worlds are simply abandoned to fend for themselves and ultimately are lost.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
There will be corruption, because some people are corrupt but it's not the institutionalized and accepted corruption of the Sith Empire.
"Some people are corrupt" is just a meaningless platitude. Corrupt bureaucrats are corrupt because they have incentives to be corrupt in the system in which they operate. Corruption is not tolerated in the Empire. Certainly some beings become very powerful and murder/steal/etc., but anyone who holds back in the fight against the Republic or who cuts corners instead of ensuring efficiency is, well, removed. Incompetent or corrupt Moffs are removed, for example.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The corruption can also be expunged more easily; in a democracy, the government can be overthrown whenever the populace wants it to be and change effected. If the people want it and are willing to buckle down and do it, all the structures and systems are in place to effect change. It's not that it is perfect but that it can be that way if the people try hard enough. Reformers in the Republic build support, win small victories and build on them, gaining momentum until change is effected. Reformers in the Empire are killed.
First, the Republic is an oligarchy, not a democracy. Second, not all reformers in the Empire are killed. Those who openly declare their intent to act probably are, but even on Dromund Kaas itself a hidden Revanite camp exists.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
In the Empire, there's no reason to want to change anything
This makes no sense.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
and even if you did, there's no way to do it without a coup d'etat, the structure doesn't support that kind of thing. The more terrible parts of the Empire are, in fact, essential for it's functioning.
Same goes for the Republic. You can remove corrupt Senators who are caught being corrupt in order to keep up appearances, but the same bureaucratic games and monarchies and poverty and crime remain.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The Empire needs slavery; it couldn't afford to do all the things it does if it had to pay for all that work/food/equipment.
Sure it could. Besides, if the Empire needs slaves, it needs people in a good enough state to work. The Republic simply lets beings rot in the undercity of Coruscant or allows nobility on Alderaan to exploit others.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The Empire needs xenophobia because it keeps the ruling class from completely disintegrating into paranoid massacres that would fracture it immediately; it creates a boogeyman for them all to unite against.
Nope, and Malgus explains why this is wrong. For one, the Republic is a common enemy (not necessarily a "boogeyman"---regardless of who started the war, the Republic wants to destroy the Empire and hence is not a threat someone just made up), so you don't need to hate aliens. Regardless, xenophobia need not be permanent. Agents are constantly reaching out to other civilizations and groups on the Empire's behalf---a whole bureau called the "Diplomatic Service" is devoted to this.

Quote: Originally Posted by armphid View Post
The Empire's evil is part of the institution and thus any attempt to change it would have to fundamentally remake the institution itself.
If you can say that about the Empire, then you can say it about the Republic. But really, civilizations can and do change.
In the Imperial Army, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance.

Mawduce's Avatar


Mawduce
12.11.2012 , 12:12 AM | #16
Empire
I was made to fly, and you were made to die...

Stormcloudx's Avatar


Stormcloudx
12.11.2012 , 12:35 AM | #17
The empire I agree with, if they had a few tweaks they would truly be great for the advancement of the galaxy. The republic with tweaks could work too..but they have more tweaking needed than the empire. If you want a good analogy of the republic check history and look up the actual IRL League of Nations....and how greatly they prevented ww2 from occurring. The mask of democracy and freedom can only take you so far, inherently for things to be accomplished and done 100% freedom is not possible w/o inviting anarchy. Keeping everyone on an even playing field also gets more difficult the larger the population. Saying republic=good empire=bad is taking he simple black and white approach to a grey issue. Just because a republic is a republic and we are TAUGHT to value what a republic means does not mean this REPUBLIC= our republic we are accustomed to in this present time.

Lord_O_Death_Joe's Avatar


Lord_O_Death_Joe
12.11.2012 , 01:19 AM | #18
I myself am fairly new and play mostly empire. I enjoy the do-it-or-die challenge and brutal cunning and violence of sith and imperial anything in general.

However, this thread is sounding a lot more like irl politics than a game all of a sudden

Would I want either of these for an irl government? I think not.

The Empire is evil. It is run by Sith, who are of the dark side, love war and violence, started this war that has killed needless thousands (even of their own), they are expansionist at heart, did I mention evil?

Now, if you were to replace all the sith with your hypothetical phlosipher king as you suggest, a sort of completely un-corruptable (didn't you mention that the senators couldn't resist their smaller ever-present lure of corruption?) who could out of the sheer goodness of his heart punish all the evil and leave only good. Yes, then you would be completely fine. However, if we are talking irl, I seem to not remember any fantasticly perfect dictators...

In the Empire, you can do whatever you want as long as it helps "the Empire". So if you're a slave, well I'm sorry, not only do you have poverty, little upward mobility, and poor conditions: here enjoy this slave driver, family destruction for convience, and zero freedom to decide at least how you will live your sad life.

Lastly, in the Empire, does it seem all that likely that someone who has the freedom to punish or kill their subordanates at will will really be nicer than someone held to standards of respect (not just effectiveness)? I seem to remember nazis having the same freedom, they were nice...

Now to the Republic.

The Republic has a decent representative system but as far as I can see lacks any real jusidial mechinisim. It has a representative main body, but each of those folks come from largely monarchical or other planets (which seems to be where you pointed to for a lot of your objections)

The Jedi Order you could claim are close to judges. Personally I don't want a cop and a judge to be the same person. That also has a nagging corruption tendacy. "This guys punched me in the face bring him in, I'm sure he stole that car too." Jouries anyone?

Also, the fact that there was no clear executive power in the Republic is what seems to have allowed the Palpitine to take over so easily when they (the senators) needed quick action. No, the Republic is very much a hob-gobled conglomoration of various systems held together by a few decent (not perfect) souls as well as a bunch of wannbe monarchs who ONLY seem half decent because they don't want to be thrown out and get away with whatever they can. (However, the idea of a representative system at least attempts to limit this). They certainly have poor, but you can't eliminate poor by force without just using up untold time and resources taking away from anyone who has more than someone else. The Republic and it's monkish cult of Jedi aren't up to standards for a real life government, but then again, nobody should expect them to be. It's an idle-ised story after all.


I would conclude by pointing out that empire-is-really-best-for-everyone folks seem to be looking for the exceptions (but there is this nice empire group over here, and look, this guy earned his rank with honor and effecency) (but this republic guy was so corrupt, look at this shadey deal!) while the republic-is-the-true-hope certainly make generalizations that are not, and can not be, always true.

I am confident that you all understand that this game has been carefully balenced to allow upperward mobility and power for all classes (a real sith empire could not be rated 18 or under, or within sane decency for that matter). These factions are the product of storywriting and of course the writiers will bring out very unlikely good elements from Empire and evil elements from Republic. That's good and not boring story. Niether of these factions should be concidered as slightly feasible irl. Light side dark side anyone? Keep it simple. It's fun.

Irl politics are confusing, messy and take more than hypotheticals. They take history, insight, and fundamental princiiples.


As for me: I play to continue enjoying and loving my sith inquizitor, who zaps everyone, schemes regularly, and generally does evil in a very PG and unevil, lulz way.
-
*.....*.,,....Lv fr r d lk pr....,,.*......*
.......,~,.....Srh hrugh Awsmss.....,~,.......
.._.~;`~._,;~,................... Joe ....................,~;,_.~`;~._..

Spartanik's Avatar


Spartanik
12.11.2012 , 01:41 AM | #19
I play both what of it ? want to see all stories.
That said, i seem to play mostly with my jk.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Also
Quote:
HK47: Statement: You are like a delightful random cruelty generator, master, poisoning all you touch with your presence. You are a testament to all organic meatbags everywhere.

BradTheImpaler's Avatar


BradTheImpaler
12.11.2012 , 04:47 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_O_Death_Joe View Post
I myself am fairly new and play mostly empire. I enjoy the do-it-or-die challenge and brutal cunning and violence of sith and imperial anything in general.

However, this thread is sounding a lot more like irl politics than a game all of a sudden

Would I want either of these for an irl government? I think not.

The Empire is evil. It is run by Sith, who are of the dark side, love war and violence, started this war that has killed needless thousands (even of their own), they are expansionist at heart, did I mention evil?

Now, if you were to replace all the sith with your hypothetical phlosipher king as you suggest, a sort of completely un-corruptable (didn't you mention that the senators couldn't resist their smaller ever-present lure of corruption?) who could out of the sheer goodness of his heart punish all the evil and leave only good. Yes, then you would be completely fine. However, if we are talking irl, I seem to not remember any fantasticly perfect dictators...

In the Empire, you can do whatever you want as long as it helps "the Empire". So if you're a slave, well I'm sorry, not only do you have poverty, little upward mobility, and poor conditions: here enjoy this slave driver, family destruction for convience, and zero freedom to decide at least how you will live your sad life.

Lastly, in the Empire, does it seem all that likely that someone who has the freedom to punish or kill their subordanates at will will really be nicer than someone held to standards of respect (not just effectiveness)? I seem to remember nazis having the same freedom, they were nice...

Now to the Republic.

The Republic has a decent representative system but as far as I can see lacks any real jusidial mechinisim. It has a representative main body, but each of those folks come from largely monarchical or other planets (which seems to be where you pointed to for a lot of your objections)

The Jedi Order you could claim are close to judges. Personally I don't want a cop and a judge to be the same person. That also has a nagging corruption tendacy. "This guys punched me in the face bring him in, I'm sure he stole that car too." Jouries anyone?

Also, the fact that there was no clear executive power in the Republic is what seems to have allowed the Palpitine to take over so easily when they (the senators) needed quick action. No, the Republic is very much a hob-gobled conglomoration of various systems held together by a few decent (not perfect) souls as well as a bunch of wannbe monarchs who ONLY seem half decent because they don't want to be thrown out and get away with whatever they can. (However, the idea of a representative system at least attempts to limit this). They certainly have poor, but you can't eliminate poor by force without just using up untold time and resources taking away from anyone who has more than someone else. The Republic and it's monkish cult of Jedi aren't up to standards for a real life government, but then again, nobody should expect them to be. It's an idle-ised story after all.


I would conclude by pointing out that empire-is-really-best-for-everyone folks seem to be looking for the exceptions (but there is this nice empire group over here, and look, this guy earned his rank with honor and effecency) (but this republic guy was so corrupt, look at this shadey deal!) while the republic-is-the-true-hope certainly make generalizations that are not, and can not be, always true.

I am confident that you all understand that this game has been carefully balenced to allow upperward mobility and power for all classes (a real sith empire could not be rated 18 or under, or within sane decency for that matter). These factions are the product of storywriting and of course the writiers will bring out very unlikely good elements from Empire and evil elements from Republic. That's good and not boring story. Niether of these factions should be concidered as slightly feasible irl. Light side dark side anyone? Keep it simple. It's fun.

Irl politics are confusing, messy and take more than hypotheticals. They take history, insight, and fundamental princiiples.


As for me: I play to continue enjoying and loving my sith inquizitor, who zaps everyone, schemes regularly, and generally does evil in a very PG and unevil, lulz way.
Of course you need to go beyond hypotheticals. I was simply saying they can have a use (i.e. when they're hypotheses based on history, etc). It may take a lot of resources to root out that kind of corruption, but it's worth it (hence a whole branch of the Empire that is in a way partly devoted to it). Also, the Jedi are not a cult, and are held to high standards so as not to abuse power (and the Republic has courts---the Jedi are not the judges). Others might think it's possible, but I certainly never said anything about a benevolent dictator. There are decent people in the Empire who would arguably make a better government than either the Sith order or the Republic. Aside from that, those are all pretty good points.
In the Imperial Army, it takes more courage to retreat than to advance.