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Guardian tank's accuracy


Kurugi's Avatar


Kurugi
12.02.2012 , 05:41 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I've got one of each of the three tank specs and I play all 3 of them all the time in all tiers of content (in fact, I just finished running a Taral V on my Shadow Shadow, LI on Guardian, and then SM EV and Hm LI on my VG before posting this). Guardians have the lowest DPS, the lowest TPS, and, by far, the least cohesive attack priority or attack string of all of the tanks. You have a 4.5 sec CD basic attack which *should*, sensibly, be the cycle all of the other attacks are built around except they're not: GS is on a 15 sec CD, Blade Storm (unless you go hybrid) is on a 12 sec CD, and Force Sweep is on either a 15 sec CD (for hybrid) or a 12 sec CD (for full Defense; feasibly you could take only 1 pt in it to bring it down to 13.5 for an even division into the 4.5 cycle; at that point, you'd still wanna take the second point for the extra damage but the CD reduction is kinda wasted). It gets even worse when you realize that, unlike VGs and Shadows, which get slightly worse when they're not actively tanking, Guardians get *way* worse when they're not being attacked. A Guardian dummy parse is going to be completely inaccurate because of the requirement to be attacked for half of the mechanics involved.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80YFtnTBApU

Someone just geniunely having fun with the class? Can't have that. Better bash them in the face with mechanics and math and so forth so they stop having fun and realize how poor the class they play actually is.

LordMalic's Avatar


LordMalic
12.02.2012 , 06:00 PM | #12
Guardian is the same to Juggernaut. Accuracy comes from gear and in the early raids you were required to have as close to 110% cause the bosses had a 10% buff to their armor. Now you pretty much have to have close to 100% cause of rage/force and the ability to retain threat. If the guardian is like Juggernaut then we do have a threat issue at times. Power Tech and Assassins have a better threat table. make sure your DEF is 25% and your shield/absorb is 50%. I have also seen tanks stack END/Power on augs....this isn't WOW use shield/pwr or absorb/pwr for your augs.

But do watch on dread guard gear cause most gear doesn't have Accur and you may either have mods/enhan. made or get some dps gear pcs and swap in and out.
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wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
12.02.2012 , 06:08 PM | #13
I've actually got a question about my Guardian, I've mostly got him min maxed in a mix of 61's and 63's. I go with the high mitigation defense mods and high mitigation shield/absorb enh's along with shield/absorb earpiece/implants. I also use 1 War Hero defense relic and 1 absorb proc relic.

Now for the question, would it be worth it to trade 2 or 3 shield/absorb enh's for 2 or 3 accuracy/absorb enh's, and make up the missing shield with a War Hero shield relic instead of the absorb proc relic? Or are you shooting yourself in the foot at that point when you could just get a War Hero power relic and generate better threat than the accuracy would make up for?

I guess my reasoning is, since threat is only important at the beginning of a fight anyways when it comes to the threat generated from your attacks, the extra accuracy would help make sure you don't get a couple of unlucky misses in a row (I play the hybrid which is decent for threat although hurts more when you miss because of lack of Focus). So even though the power relic would equal more threat over the course of a fight, the assumption is that if I hit on all of my attacks without it, I'd hold threat either way, but the accuracy helps to avoid those crappy RNG situations.

Of course, either way I'm sacrificing mitigation, so I'm not sure how I feel about it.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.02.2012 , 07:15 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Kurugi View Post
Someone just geniunely having fun with the class? Can't have that. Better bash them in the face with mechanics and math and so forth so they stop having fun and realize how poor the class they play actually is.
I'm curious where exactly you interpreted "omg, stop having fun!" from my description of the general poor design of the class as a whole, nor do I think that there is really any reason to stop playing the class either. You can enjoy playing a Guardian tank as it stands now, but it doesn't change the fact that there are pretty well defined issues in the real lack of a defined playstyle for Guardian tanks. It's one of the reasons why Guardians are considered to be the hardest to become proficient with, which isn't what I would really describe as a "good thing", especially since said baseline proficiency doesn't really reward you for doing all of that work. They're not a class/spec that plays like a class/spec designed from the ground up: there are too many pieces that simply don't fit with one another to accept that. As such, Guardian tanks play more like a patchwork design that, while it works, doesn't necessarily work as efficiently or as effectively as it could, and should (considering what the other tanks are capable of from a damage and threat perspective), were it rebuilt with a cohesive design in mind.

There is a *vast* difference between "the class/spec has some problems that really should be addressed" and "this class/spec is terrible and you should feel terrible for playing it and enjoying it" (which, if I did say that, would be a bit hypocritical since I both play it and enjoy it). Just because I criticize something and provide numbers to support that criticism doesn't mean that I'm a "stop having fun guy". The only time I behave like that is when there is someone playing in a noticeably sub-optimal way because that's how they have fun with the class and that person's inability to contribute effectively (because they can't seem to combine "fun" and "effective" or seem to think they're mutually exclusive concepts) is causing problems with our ability to succeed (like the DPS wearing tank gear in an SM EV I just did that couldn't manage to kill his Infernal Council member before the event reset even though he was in full BH). At that point, it becomes a question of "your fun" v. "everyone else's fun", wherein I have no problem being the ***-hole that tells you to stop having fun and start being effective because wiping on the simplest content in the game isn't in most people's definition of "fun".

Keep in mind, I don't think that the changes I want to make would render the class largely unplayable for people that currently enjoy the class. I doubt many people would mind if they got more threat and damage, their abilities we're recharging and then sitting there unused for 2-3 GCDs because the CD doesn't sync with the actual application of said abilities, and they were not longer the only class of *any* kind that had a stance that applies a weakening effect without being justifiably more powerful (the focus generation capability is identical to what the DPS stances provide, the increase to threat and DR is offset by the lack of direct damage contribution or resource generation that the other stances provide, and, yet, somehow, Soresu Form is the only stance in the game with an appreciable negative side effect; Combat Technique for Shadows is the only other stance with a negative side effect, but -5% melee bonus damage is something altogether different than 1 less Focus on all Focus generating abilities, especially since Shadow tanks only get about 5-7% of their threat and damage from melee attacks).

There are a *lot* of really weird, poorly designed, poorly implemented things involved in Guardian tanking. Those should be addressed, and I don't see why exactly that would make them less fun to play (nor provide a reason why anyone should feel inclined to not play the class as it stands since, once you've learned to deal with said weirdness of design and implementation, it's effective, even if it's not optimal).
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Slivovidze's Avatar


Slivovidze
12.03.2012 , 02:55 AM | #15
I actually agree a bit with Kitru there. Of course it is strange that having to run a hybrid to get some damage. I remember that being a regular defense guardian was fine, but I really felt the lack of my damage. Hybrid got that fixed a bit, for a price of harder focus maintenance. And the difference is so big that it was my respec what made my guild kill Zorn and Toth HM for the first time, or Kephess in TfB. (well, yeah, our progress is not as far as yours, these two were really achievements for us)

So, it makes sense that the class is wrongly designed, because some player designed hybrid build should not be as good as the game's original tanking build, with some tradeoffs. I don't remember any real hybrid possibilities for other tanks, you always had to go to the top of your tanky tree to be a good tank.

But still, honestly, I hope they would not rebuild the Guardians so much that they would kill hybrids, because again, I SO love looking like I beat crap out of my enemy. (and secondly, I can switch into Shien and DPS gear to turn into somehow decent DPS and really beat them down)

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
12.03.2012 , 07:31 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
(like the DPS wearing tank gear in an SM EV I just did that couldn't manage to kill his Infernal Council member before the event reset even though he was in full BH)
Seriously?

The raw amount of Strength one gets from Black Hole tank gear should be enough to steamroll an Infernal Council member on story mode. Was he just spamming Strike or what? Or did he play a 13/16/12 spec?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.03.2012 , 10:42 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
The raw amount of Strength one gets from Black Hole tank gear should be enough to steamroll an Infernal Council member on story mode. Was he just spamming Strike or what? Or did he play a 13/16/12 spec?
It was an Assault Commando (least I think he was Assault since he was using Plasma Cell) who bottomed out his Ammo bar. I'm not even sure what he was burning said ammo on. Whenever he finally got his kill, it actually took him longer than a recruit geared Guard DPS. The only person he ended up beating was a recruit geared Commando heals who didn't have Charged Bolts on his bar and did the entire thing with Hammer Shot.

When I asked him why he was wearing tank gear as a Commando, since he didn't even *have* a tank spec, he responded with a question of "well what do you want me to wear?" as if it was the only thing available to him. He obviously hadn't gotten through any content that actually dropped Black Hole gear so that just confused me even more.
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cisme's Avatar


cisme
12.04.2012 , 02:37 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
(and you should never need to tank swap in the first 15 seconds of a fight).
This is generally correct unless you are tanking the Dog in Nightmare Pilgrim. When he spawns he will usually place a debuff one whoever is tanking him that makes you take a lot more damage

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.06.2012 , 03:04 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by cisme View Post
This is generally correct unless you are tanking the Dog in Nightmare Pilgrim. When he spawns he will usually place a debuff one whoever is tanking him that makes you take a lot more damage
That tank swap is different to other tank swaps in that you don't need to save your taunt for it. That fight has more of a "rotating offtank" feel than a true tank swap. Even when a tank swap is required (ie: one of the Dog tanks gets Bloodmark), there is sufficient time for taunt to come off CD between the warning for a tank swap and the swap being required.

In terms of fights that require a true tank swap (ie both tanks swapping bosses they are actively tanking) none of them occur within the first 15 seconds.
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Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
12.07.2012 , 10:45 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Slivovidze View Post
But still, honestly, I hope they would not rebuild the Guardians so much that they would kill hybrids, because again, I SO love looking like I beat crap out of my enemy. (and secondly, I can switch into Shien and DPS gear to turn into somehow decent DPS and really beat them down)
I agree with this 100%. More build options for DPS, Tanking, and Healing is the way to go. If you need a cookie cutter approach to any of those, a game gets a lot more boring fast. I'm still new to all this in ToR, but the MMO I came from did allow for a lot of flexibility in builds and I hope they keep some of this here as they fix the real issues.