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Guardian tank's accuracy


Slivovidze's Avatar


Slivovidze
12.02.2012 , 01:44 PM | #1
So here is the eternal problem.
Some say that tanks do not need accuracy, some say that they need the 100%. I personally am going the first way now, tanking successfully Denova HM. However, I noticed that my performance is different depending on what DPS guys are in the group. If we go with two sents, one gunslinger and one commando, I had totally no problem to hold aggro all the time. But, when our sents were replaced by another two gunslingers, I started to lose aggro to one of them (rarely, but still, I lost it). Guildies told me that it is because of my no accuracy approach, causing the trigger happy gunslinger hitting all his attacks generate so huge aggro that one miss from my side can send Zorn straight to him.

I am now considering building a bit towards accuracy. I have no accuracy on my gear right now, all accu enhancements stacked in bank and replaced by ones with shield/absorb/defense. My question is, should I get my accuracy by:

1) getting back my accuracy enhancements and mods?
2) or keeping defensive mods while getting myself accuracy augments?

The first one would just lower my defensive stats a bit, while the second would lower my defensive stats a bit, plus reduce my power (I am not entirely sure I need it anyways, guess it boosts my force attacks which is nice) and give me some bonus endurance (one can never have enough endurance, but I don't really feel like I need it - 24k hp).

So, which way do you think I should try to build my accuracy?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.02.2012 , 02:11 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Slivovidze View Post
(I am not entirely sure I need it anyways, guess it boosts my force attacks which is nice)
That power on your tank augs actually provides you with more threat than the accuracy you're looking into. Power increases the damage of all of your attacks, not just your Force attacks. Accuracy only benefits your basic attacks and marginally at best.

If you're having threat problems, you're better off tweaking your playstyle as opposed to reducing your mitigation to get accuracy in an attempt to bolster your threat. Assuming you're using a proper rotation (Throw>Leap>Sweep>Sunder>Guardian Slash>Blade Storm is my normal opening volley) and still losing threat, use your Taunts to generate snap threat. As long as you're not using it right before you need to tank swap (and you should never need to tank swap in the first 15 seconds of a fight), it'll provide you with a bit of threat (not that much since you don't really have that much threat to start off with) and a 6 second aggro cushion to get ahead of the GSs that apparently don't know how to use their threat drops. Even if you need to use both (you really shouldn't unless you're just massively outgeared by the DPS), the AoE taunt is almost never explicitly required by fight mechanics so you can use that when the first taunt wears off (which buys you another 6 seconds and *should* provide you with all the threat needed to maintain aggro for the remainder of the fight).
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grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.02.2012 , 02:39 PM | #3
As Ktiru stated, you don't need accuracy (although it does affect close to 50% of your threat in a fight). Threat on a Guardian is more about rotation and build. I use the Hybrid build and I can hold threat on pretty much everyone I've run with, including AoE threat. I find it to be about 100 TPS and 150 DPS higher than a pure Defence build (on top of its better survivability). You should also consider Guarding that 'Slinger next time. In PvE, Guard is first and foremost a threat management tool.

On a side note: if your other tank isn't a Guardian you should consider swapping bosses with them. Starting on Zorn means you lose out on Riposte, which is a solid ~300-400 TPS while other tanks only lose out on a bit of resource regen.

EDIT:
Just to clarify, accuracy actually affects the following abilities:
- Strike
- Sundering Strike
- Slash
- Dispatch
- Master Strike
- Cyclone Slash
- Saber Throw
- Force Leap
Aside from Strike they all have 100% base accuracy but bosses have a defence chance in the realm of 8%, making your effective accuracy closer to 92%. Throughout a fight, Sundering Strike is one of your highest average threat generators (usually vying with Blade Storm) while Master Strike is one of your best burst threat abilities.

Ultimately though, getting DPS stats to boost threat should be the last option on the list for tanks. Build, Gear and Rotation play a much larger role, as do Guard and threat drops. If everything else is as good as you can get it and that DPS is still pulling off you sometimes, I'd grab a bit of accuracy to reduce RNG in your threat but grabbing power is also viable. It'd be worth looking at your logs and seeing if you missed a couple of abilities in the time before that 'Slinger pulled threat.
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Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Slivovidze's Avatar


Slivovidze
12.02.2012 , 03:05 PM | #4
Well I am not that much deep in the game to check my logs and do parsing with every new item mod I get, so I am just talking from my practice...

I am hybrid, so I do not have pommel strike as a big threat bump once per minute, but I use overhead slash as much on cooldown as I can. And afaik, accuracy counts for this one. If I miss it once, I miss pretty huge aggro gain, and 4 focus bars, meaning that I can't always immediately follow up with a blade storm hit. It really feels like every missed hit hurts twice as much with hybrid build, because of the worse focus gain.

On the other hand it is true that the part where I lost aggro was really the beginning of the fight, and if our Zorn turns to the group of ranged people and makes a step or two, they get his debuff, they can get hit by some of his front AoEs, and they can all die like flies. I often forget to guard (sigh), and I always forget to blame DPS for stealing my aggro at the beginning of the fight, I need to remember to yell a bit on our trigger happy gunslingers before the fight starts.

Both of you guys somehow said that the accuracy is not needed that much. I wonder, will the guys saying that I need 100% accuracy come? Or are you two right?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.02.2012 , 03:08 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
On a side note: if your other tank isn't a Guardian you should consider swapping bosses with them. Starting on Zorn means you lose out on Riposte, which is a solid ~300-400 TPS while other tanks only lose out on a bit of resource regen.
Actually, the only class that just misses out of resource regen is Shadows. VGs lose out on resource regen as well as Stockstrike recharging (normally on a 9 sec CD, but it gets brought down to 4.5 if you're tanking and shielding). The bigger issue is that Guardians have substantially worse resource maintenance without the additional cost reduction coming from Courage, which is probably the most substantial tank mitigation-based resource mechanism between the 3 tanks: Courage amounts to 3-6 Focus "gained" every 9-12 seconds, Shield Cycler generates 1 ammo every ~9 seconds (50% chance on shield w/ 6 sec ICD), and Elusiveness/DBSD generates 4/6 every 3 seconds.

It's always been one of those weird things about Guardians compared to the other tanks: they're *way* more reliant on being M/R attacked than the other tanks to be resource stable, coupled with requiring those same conditions to have functional DPS and threat generation (which it still perturbs me that they manage worse threat *and* damage than both VGs and Shadows). It's just another reason why I think that Guardians really need to be rebuilt. They just don't function as well as the other tanks.
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grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.02.2012 , 03:17 PM | #6
Kirtu and I may disagree at times on certain things but he's one of the few people around (KeyboardNinja being another) that I'd take seriously on these forums. We're both saying the same thing although our reasoning is slightly different the result is the same: don't take accuracy.

Since you're already using the Hybrid build, play around with this opener:
Throw -> Leap -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Force Sweep -> Sunder -> Stasis -> OHS -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike -> (AoE taunt) -> Sunder
After that go into the priority rotation and pop Combat Focus when something is coming off CD but you don't have enough Focus to use it immediately. The advantage of this rotation is its mostly Force attacks early on and it maximizes survivability and Focus (aside from MS, but I like the threat boost there rather than Strike -> Sunder -> Master Strike).

Also, given you are using Hybrid and in a group with 3 'Slinger. If you have Purifying Sweeps, drop it for something else. They can do 5 stacks in 1 GCD so you don't need to worry about getting more Sunder on there faster.
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Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

kanare's Avatar


kanare
12.02.2012 , 03:53 PM | #7
always roll with a shadow tank with u , and u never have to worie about threat
nah accuracy is not some thing guardian tank's need , just work on your rotation i am happy to talk to u thurther on this matter if u contact me in private message i will happily bring u on mumble and explain why its not worth it .....

Slivovidze's Avatar


Slivovidze
12.02.2012 , 03:58 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Since you're already using the Hybrid build, play around with this opener:
Throw -> Leap -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Force Sweep -> Sunder -> Stasis -> OHS -> Sunder -> Blade Storm -> Master Strike -> (AoE taunt) -> Sunder
After that go into the priority rotation and pop Combat Focus when something is coming off CD but you don't have enough Focus to use it immediately. The advantage of this rotation is its mostly Force attacks early on and it maximizes survivability and Focus (aside from MS, but I like the threat boost there rather than Strike -> Sunder -> Master Strike).
Well I start Throw > Leap > Sunder > OHS > Blade Storm > Sunder > Sweep > other stuff. Doing this usually gives me so damn aggro that I can keep it even if I take a break in a fight to scratch my leg. Somehow I learned to manage without ever using taunt (and not losing aggro), with exception of tank swaps and situations where sh*t hit the fan and half the op is being wiped out. Lately I even manage AoE threat by switching targets and leaping over battlefield like a madwoman, which makes me feel really proud (might be a faceroll for pros, but I am a weak casual ), but it is different kind of story and does not belong here.
But of course it also depends on DPS, if they give me two or more GCD's to build my aggro (not counting the Throw and Leap). Obviously the one slinger does not do that, as I don't have any trouble with the other two, and the one we talk about is not better geared than them.


Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It's just another reason why I think that Guardians really need to be rebuilt. They just don't function as well as the other tanks.
I actually feel great with my Guardian tank. Way better than my Vanguard or Shadow, I like how we can actually choose between two viable builds, and most of the time I feel like it is appreciated that I am a guardian and not something else. I don't really know your reasons to not like Guardians, but with my hybrid adventure I fell in love of the playstyle where I actually feel like I am beating a crap out of my enemy instead of just keeping threat and defending myself. I did not get this feel with other tanks, and not even with regular Guardian tanky tree. I don't even remember having procs to look for, just cooldowns to beat some more crap. It is like tanking with a DPS (I just only don't deal that much damage, but I look like I do )
If they would rebuild Guardians into just a third regular tank, I would have trouble to check all of them again to see which is the most bada*s to roll that one. Though, I never say no to change, new build anventure could sure be fun.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
12.02.2012 , 04:38 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by kanare View Post
always roll with a shadow tank with u , and u never have to worie about threat
nah accuracy is not some thing guardian tank's need , just work on your rotation i am happy to talk to u thurther on this matter if u contact me in private message i will happily bring u on mumble and explain why its not worth it .....
Feel free to PM me with your reasoning if you don't wish to post it on the forums.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
12.02.2012 , 05:31 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Slivovidze View Post
I actually feel great with my Guardian tank. Way better than my Vanguard or Shadow, I like how we can actually choose between two viable builds, and most of the time I feel like it is appreciated that I am a guardian and not something else. I don't really know your reasons to not like Guardians, but with my hybrid adventure I fell in love of the playstyle where I actually feel like I am beating a crap out of my enemy instead of just keeping threat and defending myself. I did not get this feel with other tanks, and not even with regular Guardian tanky tree. I don't even remember having procs to look for, just cooldowns to beat some more crap. It is like tanking with a DPS (I just only don't deal that much damage, but I look like I do )
I've got one of each of the three tank specs and I play all 3 of them all the time in all tiers of content (in fact, I just finished running a Taral V on my Shadow Shadow, LI on Guardian, and then SM EV and Hm LI on my VG before posting this). Guardians have the lowest DPS, the lowest TPS, and, by far, the least cohesive attack priority or attack string of all of the tanks. You have a 4.5 sec CD basic attack which *should*, sensibly, be the cycle all of the other attacks are built around except they're not: GS is on a 15 sec CD, Blade Storm (unless you go hybrid) is on a 12 sec CD, and Force Sweep is on either a 15 sec CD (for hybrid) or a 12 sec CD (for full Defense; feasibly you could take only 1 pt in it to bring it down to 13.5 for an even division into the 4.5 cycle; at that point, you'd still wanna take the second point for the extra damage but the CD reduction is kinda wasted). It gets even worse when you realize that, unlike VGs and Shadows, which get slightly worse when they're not actively tanking, Guardians get *way* worse when they're not being attacked. A Guardian dummy parse is going to be completely inaccurate because of the requirement to be attacked for half of the mechanics involved.

Quote:
If they would rebuild Guardians into just a third regular tank, I would have trouble to check all of them again to see which is the most bada*s to roll that one. Though, I never say no to change, new build anventure could sure be fun.
My rebuild wouldn't really be designed to make them play exactly the same as the other tanks. My rebuild, if it were exactly the way I wanted it to be, would try to preserve the current elements of play while turning them into a cohesive and well thought out playstyle: fixing CDs to be in line with the 4.5 sec Sundering Strike cycle, improving performance when not being directly attacked, removing the Focus generation debuff from Soresu so that the defense tree doesn't have to focus so heavily on overcoming that. Optimally, I'd like to see the 31 pt talent turned into some kinda of improved Riposte that, while it doesn't *require* getting attacked, gets better when you have been attacked.

The rebuild, in my mind, would focus more on fixing Soresu form and the tree with minor tweaks to CDs and costs on existing abilities to fit better within the cycle, not to mention a well deserved DPS and TPS upgrade so that Guardians aren't substantially behind Shadows and VGs in both respects.
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