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Scrapper needs to be fixed.


randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
11.25.2012 , 10:47 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
With consistent 4-6k "yellow" hits. I don't think an opener that has CC on it should be particularly large. It should be an either stun opener, or a spike opener, or something in the middle.
Then you do realize a scrapper loses his edge if you tie out that big hit, right? I can definitely see what you mean, as I play other classes to and can understand the frustration, but then a scrapper would need to hit even HARDER outside of stealth, bc where were at right now wouldn't cut it. My full WH op usually only hits as high as 4400-ish on a full WH opponent. Other classes, assassins included, can crit over 7k with their abilities. A goods rapper isn't the guy who opens on a person with 50% hp, he's the guy who is most of the time out of stealth, taking out who he needs to, cc-ing, locking down healers, etc. that "big" opener isn't being used all the time, and in some cases needs to be to give him an edge.

Scrapers are sitting ducks as far as defense, so they need to do what they can, when they can. You say take out that one big hit, I say then buff our other core abilities bc we need to make up that damage from someplace else, bc we don't carry a 7k crit with us by using ANY attack I've seen. Highest I've ever hit was 6100 on my Op (1.5) and it was against a dude with 0 expertise.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.25.2012 , 12:06 PM | #12
Dunno, maybe I'm not a very good Operative, but I usually target flanks, sneak up on comfily-setup Slingers/Snipers, assist focusfire. Worked out for me so far. Not mentioning ninja-caps and node defense, when needed.

Heavy-duty melee is for Marauders, Tankasins and their like.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
11.25.2012 , 12:52 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Yes, he can tag another person with Crush, but it's not unlike like saying that you also get stunned when you break the shield that a passing bubblestun Sorc has placed on the Smasher. Third person factor.
No third person required, or ramp-up time. For a sent, Combat Focus (instant, self-cast, 1min cd) gives you 4 singularity, then you leap and Force Sweep for the big crit straight off the bat any time in the next 20s or so (forget how long the singularity stack lasts for). Hence the comparison to an opener. Then use Force Stasis or Force Exhaustion to build up to the next 4 singularity stack, as you described with Crush for a SW..

1.1 isn't really relevant to where scrappers find themselves now. Would also point out that Shoot First can only be used from stealth, so when we're stuck out of stealth we can't use it, unlike abilites that can be used on cd of a handful of seconds. We can sacrifice our best cd (Disappearing Act) to get off another, but that's a big risk to take, and then it goes on a long cd so no escapes or extra Shoot Firsts until it's back.

edit: clarity
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.25.2012 , 01:07 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
No third person required, or ramp-up time. For a sent, Combat Focus (instant, self-cast, 1min cd) gives you 4 singularity, then you leap and Force Sweep for the big crit straight off the bat any time in the next 20s or so (forget how long the singularity stack lasts for). Hence the comparison to an opener. Then use Force Stasis or Force Exhaustion to build up to the next 4 singularity stack, as you described with Crush for a SW..

1.1 isn't really relevant to where scrappers find themselves now. Would also point out that Shoot First can only be used out of stealth, so when we're stuck out of stealth we can't use it, unlike abilites that can be used on cd of a handful of seconds. We can sacrifice our best cd (Disappearing Act) to get off another, but that's a big risk to take, and then it goes on a long cd so no escapes or extra Shoot Firsts until it's back.
Shii-Cho Zen gives Sents a full stack. Combat Focus is for Guards. And no, I still can't classify Smash as opener. It's a followup. Charge is an opener/setup. Shoot First is an opener/setup. Backstab is a followup, Smash is a followup.

But I do agree that OPs/Scoundrels need to have better combat stealth, and some combat cooldowns reduced. Frankly, I think something like Force Camo belongs to OPs/Scoundrels more than it does Marauders.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

darthnish's Avatar


darthnish
11.25.2012 , 11:23 PM | #15
tbh i would be fine with a short 4 sec camo that marauders get and increase disappearing act cd back to 2 mins to compensate

But all in all i am fine with the class as is, you do need a lot of gear behind them to make them effective, but once you get there, you can take out the most BiS/geared/ w/e class in a few seconds, personally ive killed a BiS jugg in 7.5 seconds.

NurseDonut's Avatar


NurseDonut
11.26.2012 , 07:59 AM | #16
I'd be happy if it was easier to get back into stealth when disappearing act is on cool-down. Perhaps a 3 second cast ability that removes you from combat, so that you can re-stealth. It can feel like a lifetime hiding behind a pillar and waiting to exit combat after finishing someone off.

GHoppa's Avatar


GHoppa
11.27.2012 , 03:32 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
...A good scrapper isn't the guy who opens on a person with 50% hp, he's the guy who is most of the time out of stealth, taking out who he needs to, cc-ing, locking down healers, etc. that "big" opener isn't being used all the time ...
OMG. You don't know how good it feels to hear someone else say and realize that. It rings very true, and i get really sick of seeing dps'ers on my server sitting around in stealth waiting for a perfect oppertunity. (For those that do it, that is not helping the team effectively people!!!)


Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Heavy-duty melee is for Marauders, Tankasins and their like.
Thats all well and good, and i do the other things you mentioned as much as possilbe. But sometimes, alot of times, there is no other real option that will help the team other than heavy duty melee. Especially against good oppenants, or in rateds.

Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
... And no, I still can't classify Smash as opener. It's a followup. Charge is an opener/setup. Shoot First is an opener/setup. Backstab is a followup, Smash is a followup. ...
You can hit Zen/combat focus, and simply walk up to someone, and lolsmash them (not auto crit, but will still hit reasonably hard, almost as hard as shoot first. Dont forget shoot first isn't auto crit). Does that then make it an opener? Smash requires 2 abilitys to make it hit so hard, just as shoot first requires 2 things also (stealth and being behind target).

The point is it's just argueing semantics about titles the game hasn't even given these abilitys. The reality is smash is just as easy, if not more easy to use than shoot first, hits harder, on a shorter cd. They both fill the same role, and that is burst dps, regardless of the descriptive title anyone has given them, so the comparison is fair between them.

If your the same person who posts alot in the guardian forums, i have alot of respect for your opinions and believe your a sane voice of reason over there sometimes, and don't view this as an attack. I just think the comparison between those abilities is more than fair.

I would love to see a 'force camo' type of ability on a shortish cd granted to Scoundrels at lvl 50. I think it's just what we need to put us up at the level of dps that vg/pt/sent/maras are capable of in pvp.

SharpG's Avatar


SharpG
11.27.2012 , 03:59 PM | #18
See, this is the HUGE problem, the other stealth class (I've played a scoundrel for a year now, mainly scrapper/dirty fighting and occasionally healing) and after rolling a shadow as well, its very clear that the shadow excels in every role over the scoundrel, infiltration's burst DPS is higher then a scrapper's while barely relying on stealth, for shadow's, stealth is a useful tool, for scrappers, its a crutch. You can throw ANY argument out there where you think a DPS scoundrel out performs a class in a certain role and I will easily show you the flaws in your agument because I have played every comparable class to 50 and geared it. The ridiculous argument that scrappers don't shine until they are geared is complete and utter stupidity, no class does very well until they are geared. Scrappers don't control their opponents any better then a shadow does either so throw that stupid argument out the window, play the class before you pull this crap out of your butt please, and play it for real, not the occasional warzone where you face a recruit geared or PvE geared opponent or prey on 50% opponents all the while not helping your team in the least bit.

So in short, stop saying the class is fine because you CASUALLY pvp/pve with it or have only seen it played with it's "billions of stuns". I guarantee most of you defending the class saying its fine haven't played it thoroughly enough to see it's flaws. It lacks sustainable DPS outside of stealth as a scrapper and the dirty fighting tree throws out subpar DPS compared to any other class in PvP as well as PvE (Any DoT spec excels compared to dirty fighting in PvE)

hunterraaze's Avatar


hunterraaze
11.27.2012 , 09:52 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by NurseDonut View Post
I'd be happy if it was easier to get back into stealth when disappearing act is on cool-down. Perhaps a 3 second cast ability that removes you from combat, so that you can re-stealth. It can feel like a lifetime hiding behind a pillar and waiting to exit combat after finishing someone off.
Agree.
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~Iryllia
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Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
11.28.2012 , 04:42 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by NurseDonut View Post
I'd be happy if it was easier to get back into stealth when disappearing act is on cool-down.
Yeah, pet hate.

I'll just stand in the corner here, don't know how long for, nobody come around the pillar please. Wonder how the fight's going? Have I got any cigarettes left to pass the time? Did I leave a dot on someone that lasts for 5 minutes?... Akaavi or Risha, Risha or Akaavi?.... Did I turn the gas off before I left the freighter?.....

Oh Frack it, Disappearing Act's off cd now I'll use that.

...aaah, freaking stealth blinked blue just as I pressed DA. Must kill marauders.
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)