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Why not: Deception Manifesto


PlagaNerezza's Avatar


PlagaNerezza
12.03.2012 , 02:00 AM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by nosmos View Post
@ PlagaNerezza

Heh, I feel like you quoted all of that without reading it. This is not about PVP - and I am unsure how you can compare a tanking tree over a dps spec
Because in SWTOR buffing and nerfs for pve/pvp effect each other and pretending that your slightly smaller dps than a marauder is some problem is unrealistic. Play better. Its not a bad build for PvE.
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nosmos's Avatar


nosmos
12.03.2012 , 07:38 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by PlagaNerezza View Post
Because in SWTOR buffing and nerfs for pve/pvp effect each other and pretending that your slightly smaller dps than a marauder is some problem is unrealistic. Play better. Its not a bad build for PvE.
Thanks for your input bro, move along. And I am a pretty good player, so I thank you again. This thread is about some equality in terms of some very basic stats - ie, at the very least, an accuracy increase in the surging charge stance or something. Kindly move along to the next thread, peace
55 Assassin - 55 Sorc - 55 Jug - 55 Marauder - 55 Sniper
55 Operative - 55 merc - 55 Powertech

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
12.05.2012 , 01:28 AM | #73
What about Voltaic Slash automatically causing a proc from Surging charge? More damage off of the ability every use, and also making it far easier to build up static charges for Discharge, which in turn helps us do more burst, and making those 2 points less of a waste. Also for PvP, doing something like this would make Voltaic Slash desirable again over hybrids such as 0/27/14. Mara's get a similar effect off of their Massacre, so why not us too? Seems like a perfect plan to me.

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
12.05.2012 , 03:10 AM | #74
I actually don't like deception for pvp as much as I used to. I only respec into it if derpsmashers are lolsmashing me constantly and I still need to dps. Madness is just better at too many things: instant ww with second stun, creeping terror snare, death field huge range and huge aoe, and higher actual dps on top of self heals. I really like the cd reduction of cloak and force speed, but almost all specs get speed anyways because all specs get duplicity and its only 2 more pts to reach speed.
Sure it's great against smash but so is snare/stun/dot or snare/overload/dot and smashers can leap to someone else to dps anyways.
Anyhow, I agree that the talents you described are ignorantly designed, for any situation. Surging charge needs a bonus like the other stances, and conduit is stupid. VS shouldn't require low slash and overcharge saber kinda stinks, in addition to the discharge buff never getting to 5.
I do disagree on 2 points: accuracy on gear was mentioned. Two of our main attacks are force and need no accuracy. Maul can just be recast for 17 again if it doesn't connect. VS is filler and whiffing a filler is no big deal. Assassinate whiffs will suck, but that's one out of 5 skills. I run with no accuracy on gear and have no issues, you will do just fine without it too.
The other thing is a mainstat buff. While I agree it kinda sucks we don't get one, every spec grabs the 9% crit bonus and recklessness is there every 60s. That adds up to a lot of crit.

I'd like to see changes to the stance, conduit, VS prerequisite and overcharge saber but realize that 600 internal damage every other gcd is nothing to scoff at. When overcharge is up it deals more damage per second than death field with its cooldown.

People say deception is good in pvp but it really isn't all that great vs good teams, and obviously it stinks in raids. The changes were good but I think more tweaks are needed. My only question is why use deception for pve? Madness has range, more dps and self heals.

That's my 2c

nosmos's Avatar


nosmos
12.05.2012 , 07:55 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
I actually don't like deception for pvp as much as I used to. I only respec into it if derpsmashers are lolsmashing me constantly and I still need to dps. Madness is just better at too many things: instant ww with second stun, creeping terror snare, death field huge range and huge aoe, and higher actual dps on top of self heals. I really like the cd reduction of cloak and force speed, but almost all specs get speed anyways because all specs get duplicity and its only 2 more pts to reach speed.
Sure it's great against smash but so is snare/stun/dot or snare/overload/dot and smashers can leap to someone else to dps anyways.
Anyhow, I agree that the talents you described are ignorantly designed, for any situation. Surging charge needs a bonus like the other stances, and conduit is stupid. VS shouldn't require low slash and overcharge saber kinda stinks, in addition to the discharge buff never getting to 5.
I do disagree on 2 points: accuracy on gear was mentioned. Two of our main attacks are force and need no accuracy. Maul can just be recast for 17 again if it doesn't connect. VS is filler and whiffing a filler is no big deal. Assassinate whiffs will suck, but that's one out of 5 skills. I run with no accuracy on gear and have no issues, you will do just fine without it too.
The other thing is a mainstat buff. While I agree it kinda sucks we don't get one, every spec grabs the 9% crit bonus and recklessness is there every 60s. That adds up to a lot of crit.

I'd like to see changes to the stance, conduit, VS prerequisite and overcharge saber but realize that 600 internal damage every other gcd is nothing to scoff at. When overcharge is up it deals more damage per second than death field with its cooldown.

People say deception is good in pvp but it really isn't all that great vs good teams, and obviously it stinks in raids. The changes were good but I think more tweaks are needed. My only question is why use deception for pve? Madness has range, more dps and self heals.

That's my 2c
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this has more to do with PVE and deception in endgame operations. Honestly, I see no issue in PVP.
55 Assassin - 55 Sorc - 55 Jug - 55 Marauder - 55 Sniper
55 Operative - 55 merc - 55 Powertech

ablanator's Avatar


ablanator
12.05.2012 , 01:58 PM | #76
I agree with the OP about crit and mainstat but I feel obliged to play devil's advocate with regards to accuracy.

Btw, I've been playing assasin as my main since lauch and though I currently use madness, I leveled in deception and I've tried about every possible build.

The reason why other classes get accuracy in their spec is because they need it for their offhand weapon. The accuracy gap between mainhand and offhand is something like 20 or 30 percent of their base 90 percent. I was just talking with a guildie who plays Mara the other night and he was complaining that he's not sure how much accuracy to stack because he has the accuracy talent but his offhand still misses alot.

Juggs also have an accuracy talent but they need it because most of their abilities are melee. This is important because their resource management depends on making those melee hits. Once a dps jugg gets 100/110 through gear stats they don't need that talent but unlike sin tanks, jugg tanks still benefit from it because they need to stack defensive stats.

As for the arguments made in this thread for accuracy, that's an itemization issue, not a waekness in the spec. One person wanted to trade accuracy on their gear for power, but you simply can't do that. The way the gear is designed you can only choose between accuracy and surge. The problem is that, once you get past the first 100 points, SURGE HAS THE WORST DR IN THE GAME! By the time you get to 300 and try to stack more, you only get a few percent more for another 300 points! Compare that to the FIFTY percent that deception gets for shock and discharge!

Another person was upset about losing accuracy when they upgraded their implants. Again, that is an itemization issue and its one that everyone has to deal with throughout the game. It's a pain in the butt, however, you simply have to swap in more emhancements that favor accuracy.

Another person complained about seeing Maras running around with extra surge on their gear. You can't compare one class to another by glancing at their character sheet. Again, even with the talent, acuracy is still a liability to them. How much of a liability can only be determined through detailed theorycrafting or simulation.

Let me repeat that I agree with the other points made in this thread, but I find it ironic because poeple were complaining left and right about too much accuracy on endgame gear and it looks like Bioware finally listened! LULZ

Sarenne's Avatar


Sarenne
12.06.2012 , 02:55 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by ablanator View Post
I find it ironic because poeple were complaining left and right about too much accuracy on endgame gear and it looks like Bioware finally listened! LULZ
I know tanks were complaining about too much accuracy on gear and rightfully so, but this thread is about wanting to be able to tweak our stats in our AC trees like other classes can.. Big thanks to OP for posting the thread and continuing to pursue it because yeah, 2-3 % is a HUGE deal at endgame. Speaking for myself I'd prefer a mainstat or critical % option in the deception tree but tying a 3% accuracy bonus to surging charge would also be acceptable - perhaps this would have the lowest impact on PvP? Dare I ask for all 3?

_Darkstar's Avatar


_Darkstar
12.06.2012 , 08:49 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by nosmos View Post
Yeah, i keep up with our marauders and powertechs as deception in tfb hm, often im on top depending on the boss fight.
You top DPS and still want a buff?

You know not everything is meant to have the same mechanics, and if you gain crit or primary stat you will have to lose out on DPS elsewhere to balance, not to mention losing out on survivability if the extra crit unbalanced PvP.

I honestly don't know how good or bad Deception plays, but your arguement just sounds like you want it to be something it isn't. If they followed your logic every spec would have the same powers so no spec felt left out. The goal is that the total of all abilities gives x dps +/- a few percent, not to make all specs similar in mechanics or talents.
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nosmos's Avatar


nosmos
12.06.2012 , 10:16 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by _Darkstar View Post
You top DPS and still want a buff?

You know not everything is meant to have the same mechanics, and if you gain crit or primary stat you will have to lose out on DPS elsewhere to balance, not to mention losing out on survivability if the extra crit unbalanced PvP.

I honestly don't know how good or bad Deception plays, but your arguement just sounds like you want it to be something it isn't. If they followed your logic every spec would have the same powers so no spec felt left out. The goal is that the total of all abilities gives x dps +/- a few percent, not to make all specs similar in mechanics or talents.
I said I can keep up with them, on certain fights - mainly the puzzle boss and TFB itself. The rest on 16man I usually parse around 4th or 5th as deception. Also, I am completely dread guard with the exception of an ear piece. I am geared, and we don't have too many yet that are 'that' geared out for dps. A couple of our marauders are, and yeah - they easily top on every fight. I have to be geared to the **** to even come close - we need what every class has. I would love some crit or mainstat talents, if that is asking too much at least give us an accuracy talent in surging charge. SOMETHING. I spend around 300k a day swapping out mods and enhancments, more crit, less crit, more accuracy, less accuracy. If i want say 1005+ force power (with 2 dread guard relics equiped) I basically have to have 95/105 accuracy. If I want 100/110 accuracy, I basically have to have 900+ force power or very low crit.
It's a simple issue really, why the assassin is the only class in the game with 1 stat boost - endurance, is beyond me. Sure, madness gets +3 percent under charge mastery, but I play an assassin - I got bored of madness on my sorc long ago (granted, it is better on the assassin)
55 Assassin - 55 Sorc - 55 Jug - 55 Marauder - 55 Sniper
55 Operative - 55 merc - 55 Powertech