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New dread guard proc relic vs warhero relic

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
New dread guard proc relic vs warhero relic

nbayer's Avatar


nbayer
11.16.2012 , 10:26 AM | #1
**EDIT: FINDINGS***

From the discussion in this thread, this is what I believe the current BiS relics are for gunnery commandos:
DG kinetic proc relic *Kinetic proc uses tech crit chance while energy proc uses force crit chance
DG power activation relic

Additional threads:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=555367
http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum....html#pid24331

**ORIGINAL POST FOLLOWS**
So with the new patch we got updated stats on the dread guard relics, they now include a +47 power stat.

Dread Guard Relic of Dark Radiance
+64 end
+47 power
30% chance of 210 internal, 4.5 sec internal cooldown

I am trying to figure out if they are now better than then WH relic, for at least one of the relic slots. I do not know if this math is correct which I why I would like your opinions on it. I am using the internal damage type relic as it seems to provide higher dps in general in a raid. See this post as my reference

Here are some loose assumptions I am making. 1/3rd of the hits are critting, 75% surge, gunnery spec with normal full auto talents selected.

16.79 is the bonus damage difference between the WH relic and the dread guard relic

skill, base bonus damage, damage modifier, modified bonus damage, running time, running bonus damage
full auto 1/3, 16.79, 58%, 26.53, 1, 26.53 *assuming CoF is up for this full auto
full auto 2/3, 16.79, 58%, 26.53, 2, 53.06
full auto 3/3*, 16.79, 163%, 44.16, 3, 97.21 *crit tick
grav round, 16.79, 0%, 16.79, 4.5, 114.00
grav round, 16.79, 0%, 16.79, 7, 130.79 * this ability and forward has 30% chance to proc relic
demo round*, 16.79, 105%, 34.42, 8.5, 165.21 *crit + demo crit bonus
grav round, 16.79, 0%, 16.79, 10, 182.00
full auto 1/3, 16.79, 58%, 26.53, 11, 191.74 *assuming cof proc again
full auto 2/3, 16.79, 163%, 44.16, 12, 226.16 *here the flat damage increase outpaces the proc relic
full auto 3/3*, 16.79, 58%, 26.53, 13, 252.69

So it looks like the relic has 4 chances at 30% each to outpace the WH relic. I feel like I'm being pretty generous with CoF procs and crits, and also the relic should also crit every 3rdish proc. Finally the relic does internal damage which should ignore an ops bosses armor rating while our attacks do not.

It looks to me like the proc relic should over time do more damage than the WH relic, even if it is not by much. Does anyone see anything wrong with my methodology for this?

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
11.16.2012 , 11:06 AM | #2
Yeah I do,

You're using the Internal damage relic when you have 35% armour pen and 20% armour reduction.

Due to all the armour mitigation the energy or kinetic relic does more damage than the elemental or internal.

The reason is that kinetic/energy has a higher tooltip damage but loses damage against armour which can be 30-35% on a boss. But if you have armour pen it doesn't lose as much damage and thus hits harder than the armour avoiding relics which hit a lower fixed number all the time.

nbayer's Avatar


nbayer
11.16.2012 , 12:39 PM | #3
Ok, well I think the kinetic/energy relic does 280. If it truly does more damage then that would just further cement the proc relic as the bis for one of your relics.

Where are you getting 35% armor penetration from though?

oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
11.16.2012 , 12:49 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by nbayer View Post
Where are you getting 35% armor penetration from though?
from armor piercing cell

nbayer's Avatar


nbayer
11.16.2012 , 01:16 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by oaceen View Post
from armor piercing cell
derp, I forgot about that. Armor penetration and armor reduction are effectively the same thing from a damage calculation point of view right?

Does that mean that the 35% penetration eliminates a bosses 35% armor rating?

oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
11.16.2012 , 01:34 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by nbayer View Post
derp, I forgot about that. Armor penetration and armor reduction are effectively the same thing from a damage calculation point of view right?

Does that mean that the 35% penetration eliminates a bosses 35% armor rating?
yes, and together you are getting 55% less effect from the boss's armor rating.

which equates to a little under 30% boost in damage

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.16.2012 , 05:28 PM | #7
How much harder are we actually talking? I hear this argument all the time, and I'll grant it has merit but only if the armor pen gets you back over the internal proc relic's numbers, which means we need to know how much is actually being mitigated by bosses (which is the only time it matters).

A similar argument is brought up by asking if the on use power relics are now better for boss fights, especially the ones with burst phases. Too lazy to run the sims myself but I'd like to see something along those lines which shows the DPS improvement we can expect. Especially before I go grinding out tons of daily comms.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

deadandburied's Avatar


deadandburied
11.16.2012 , 08:43 PM | #8
Austin Peckenpaugh posted this quite a while ago.

Quote:
Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

Therefore, an average Tracer Missile would deal 1804 kinetic damage, and a target with 19.5% DR would take 1452 kinetic damage. [1804 * 0.805 = 1452] This is only 3% different than the 1410 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.
So the kinetic and or energy relic damage would be 280*80.5%=225.4. Which is more damage than the internal damage relics. My problem is the up time on the proc relics. I've used them in the past and my up time was terrible. Mathing it may show the proc relic as beating out X. But real world conditions and logs from raids in the past told me otherwise.
Triggerfinger Itches, 50 Gunnery Commando, Premonition, The Harbinger

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
11.16.2012 , 09:56 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by deadandburied View Post
Austin Peckenpaugh posted this quite a while ago.



So the kinetic and or energy relic damage would be 280*80.5%=225.4. Which is more damage than the internal damage relics. My problem is the up time on the proc relics. I've used them in the past and my up time was terrible. Mathing it may show the proc relic as beating out X. But real world conditions and logs from raids in the past told me otherwise.
Awesome info as always. Thank you sir! I'm also considering switching to a dread guard on use power relic, but similar thing, I just don't know how much DPS improvement we're talking about. Would help in burst phases, but there's something to be said for steady DPS output through an entire fight.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
11.17.2012 , 04:11 AM | #10
the proc accounts for about 2% of my overall damage.

comparing the dread guard relic to a war hero relic is basically 69 power (including buffs) or that 2%


granted proc relics tend to work better on a DoT heavy built (like assault, but you'd want the elemental/internal one for that)
my scrapper scoundrel, by comparison gets a bit more mileage out of his proc relic (even though he has 5% less armor penetration)


a few things about the damage: from my recent parses, the internal/elemental crits for me for 385. i'm critting on the energy/kinetic ones for well over 400 (i think 443 was my highest).
an interesting side note, in nightmare EC, my energy relic was critting for 385 on my gunnery commando (the same as the internal/elemental) on zorn & toth, so apparently they have a bit more armor. i was critting again for well over 400 on the firebrand & stormcaller fight (on the tanks and the trandoshans under the shield) and the trash. critting for the exact same was only with zorn & toth


ultimately, the new dread guard relics are very good: 47 power plus the additional proc, but i would say that the benefit is mostly negligible to feel the need to grind up 300 daily comms (granted the new daily area makes it a lot easier now). if you have the war hero relic now, there's not an overwhelming need to grind up for the new relics and have them immediately. i already had plenty of daily comms when 1.5 went live and picked up the dread guard cerulean nova (energy proc) and boundless ages (on-use power relic)
i went with the dread guard relic because i don't pvp anymore and was using the champion relics, so it was a significant upgrade from those (rather than the arguable upgrade from war hero).

i think if i had to choose though, i'd go with the proc relic though anyway. from my tests before with the campaign relic versus the champion relic, they provided about the same (so i figured ~100 was roughly equal to 2% of my total damage. someone could probably do the math better than i)
the new relic gives me 47 power (for for me, only a 50 power difference, 69 difference from war hero), and the proc provides me more hits, which gives me more chances to crit for first responder