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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.08.2012 , 11:34 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Necrosaro View Post
Excellent post, very good read.

Though i do disagree that the Jedi Masters were right in their caution. We get told multiple times from several sources that the Republic was fracturing under the Mandalorian attacks. Yes the involvement of Revan and his Jedi did indeed lead to the Jedi civial war which was terrible however if they didn't get involved it could have been a lot worse.
If the Republic fell to the Mandalorians the Sith could have just walked in and taken over, it was only through the actions of Revan that enabled the Republic to survive in the long term even with it's terrible cost.

Quote: Originally Posted by EnsignSorrow View Post
I believe that the council was right. Revan, and the Exile should have listened to their teachings.

The jedi masters had sensed the presence of an unknown great evil at the edge of the galaxy, and were waiting for them to show face before the Jedi would interfere. There was more to learn about their enemy. Instead Revan foolishly led the charge and destroyed the Mandalorians before any information could be gathered, and at the expense of nearly the entire Republic fleet! This also led to the Jedi Civil war which saw the near extinction of the Jedi order completely. Not to mention thousands of years of knowledge lost forever. Monsters like Darth Nihilus, and Darth Sion took their place, and the force nearly ceased to be.

The Republic at that point was at the mercy of the Sith empire. Once Revan understood this he made a desperate move to band-aid his epic mistake, and only did he succeed finally when he was defeated by the Emperor, and able to put off the invasion for another 300 years.

This all could of been avoided. The battle at that point was in only outer world systems. The Republic could of defeated the Mandalorians with better tactics. Instead drawing them into a trap slowly muscling out the Mandalorians, while uniting the core worlds. Combined with the Jedi of that time, the Empire would of never stood a chance.

Revan could of been a great Jedi leader, although in the end he was like Vader. All part of the Emperor's grand plan.

That is the tragedy of Revan.
You both bring up excellent points. The Jedi Council saw the darkness lurking and knew what the consequences of fighting another war would be. Revan ignored the Council and went off to war. Doing so led to greater atrocities, far more devastating than the Mandalorian Wars.

But what would have happened if the Jedi had stayed on the side-lines? The Republic had fallen for Mandalore's false war. He led them on a never-ending war. A war that would see more Republic casualties than Mandalorian. The Republic would eventually exhaust their resources and be destroyed by the Mandalorians.

This is why the Jedi should have intervened, but only as advisors and defenders. Not as aggressors. They should have used their tactical knowledge to aid Republic forces, and use their skills in battle to defend Republic worlds, not take Mandalorian worlds.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.08.2012 , 11:38 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by gurumoicano View Post
Great work!

My opinion is that Jedi mistook to wait, but also the Republic. The Senate waited a decade to intervene, allowing to Mandalore to create an Armada. If the Mandalorians had always been a threat for the Republic, why permit them to grow and to get stronger? A dreadful war and his worst consequences (Malachor battle and Revan's fall) could be avoided by preventive actions years before (it's my opinion).
Why Jedi and the Senate were so blind? Was fortuitous, or behind the scene there was the Emperor's hand?

p.s.: sorry for my bad english
The Republic had no authority on the majority of the Outer Rim colonies. They were not official members of the Republic. The Republic had to let the colonies defend themselves. But if they were members of the Republic, the military would have intervened and destroyed the fractured Mandalorian armies. This was a brilliant tactic by Mandalore. Attack planets that the Republic can't defend, while gathering more clansmen, acquiring more weapons and supplies, and conscripting more soldiers. He took advantage of Republic law to build an almost unstoppable armada.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.08.2012 , 12:29 PM | #13
I going to be controversial here and say the Jedi Council were not only wrong not to intervene, but stupid, ignorant, generally incompetent and better off dead. (be warned I am a Trayarite and therefore by default hate the Jedi and their stupidy council )

Before I get into full flow, let me point out those leading the council included the likes of Atris - an ignorant, fanatic, dodo head and Vrook Lamar - another dodo head. But I digress.

"Apathy is death" - this basically sums up my argument. The Jedi where apathetic beyond reason and the Republic were not much better. Aurbere's account of the Mandalorian Wars has only strengthened by belief it this. If the Republic and the Jedi had intervened at the first Mandalorian attack, which was brutishly violent and against all their principles, a swifter victory may have been assured. (I say may, this may have been what the Mandalorians had been expecting)

But a fight back should have been no question when the Mandalorians dug deeper into the galaxy. The Republic and the Jedi however where simply selfish and afraid. Selfish in their inaction to defend other planets, merely because they were not part of the Republic. And afraid (the Jedi mainly) that the great sith war would repeat itself due to a fall to the dark side. (Ironically, by not intervening - it did)

But the Republic did eventually, get involved and where right to do so, but the Jedi did not. First let me point out that this practically breaks the Jedi's agreement/alliance with the Republic, who agreed to protect them against all threats, and yet here was a threat to the Republic, and its so-called defenders stood idle. But they had their excuses, meditation on the threat and what not. But what did that achieve? Did they eventually decide, "OK we've considered the enemy enough, now its time to intervene with wisdom and reason", no they stood idle while countless lives where destroyed and never got involved. Their defence is therefore moot. As I said (or Kreia said) Apathy is death. But the Jedi's apathy gets worse. Revan, while I sympathise with him, his actions were foolhardy and dangerous etcera etcera. And the Jedi where right to oppose him, but wait... did they actually oppose him, or just berate him with words? I think you'll find they did the latter, they did nothing to stop him leaving the Order and taking countless Jedi with him. Once again the Council stood idle, and did nothing.

But lets get back to the main point, should they have intervened? Well lets consider what would have happened if they did. Firstly, Revan would not have left the Order. Revan would have never led a brutal campaign against the Mandalorians and taken liberties at the cost of life, the wisdom (although I question its credibility) would have guided him (well not really, he wouldn't have been in charge in the first place so this problem would have been bypassed all together). And the Jedi would have fought as Jedi should, as guardians and protectors of peace, democracy and civilisation. But instead they let him rampage across the galaxy unchecked. The result? Malachor V - one of the greatest atrocities in history. If the Jedi had joined the war, as a unified body, this would have never happened. Anyone who has played KOTOR 2 and experienced the Council (as distasteful as that is ) would have known they would have opposed the creation of such a device. Furthermore it wouldn't have been necessary, with full Jedi backing, it would have been a far swifter and more decisive victory.

Malachor V would have never happened, Malachor would have never been found. Revan and Malak would have never found the Emperor and turn to the dark side, so the Jedi Civil War would never have happened, Telos and Taris would have never been lain to waste. Kreia would never have had a reason for going to Malachor, so the Sith Triumvirate would never have happened, nor the dark wars. In fact Nihilus would have never existed, Sion would probably have died by some other means. The death of Katarr would never have happened. The near-death of the Jedi would never have happened. Atris would have never fallen to the darkside and the Council would never have been killed (probably not a good thing). So much death and chaos could have been prevented.

In fact the only thing that would have happened, is the Great Galatic War would have come early. The Emperor would have no reason to wait and would have attacked. Would the Republic have been able to defend itself? Most likely yes, with the powerful (lightside) Jedi such as Revan, Malak, Meetra and Bastila at their backs the Empire would have been driven back. A complete Sith takeover as the Emperor had envisaged was always impossible. The Republic was simply too firmly rooted in the galaxy. Most likely the war would have panned out as did, and the result would have been the same.

So all in all, the Council was wrong, very wrong. So wrong they should have all been forced to wear dunce hats forever. They chose apathy and were given death. As always, Kreia was right.

(As you might imagine, I've being meaning to say this ever since playing KOTOR 2, and the arguments have just kept building up - hence the length. )

P.S. My short story in progress about Kreia has a Mandalorian Wars debate. And guess what, Kreia wins, and the losers die.

P.P.S Don't take me too seriously here guys, I may sound all fired up but I just want a good debate (preferably where I win). But remember if you do disagree, your as stupidy stupid as Atris and co. and will be given an imaginary/virtual dunce hat to wear as punishment.

EDIT: This is what I really wanted to say to the Jedi Council when they asked me why I defied them, like to see them argue against that.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
11.08.2012 , 01:24 PM | #14
The Council is not responsible for the Jedi Civil War or the atrocities at Malachor and Katar. That's all on Revan or the Emperor. It's not the Council's fault Revan made the choices he did before or after joining the war. He bears the responsibility for his own actions.

The Jedi Council was never going to let the Republic be destroyed. If the Mandalorians weren't stopped, they would have eventually intervened. The end result of the Council's actions would have been the Mandalorian Wars would have been much worse but the Jedi Civil War and the events of Kotor 2 would have been averted altogether. Revan was the one who set all those events in motion. In fact if they had intervened it might have gone worse for the Republic with so many more Jedi joining Revan's reckless crusade. Even if he wasn't leading it, he would have found a way to ensure things worked to his advantage like they did at Malachor.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.08.2012 , 02:21 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
The Council is not responsible for the Jedi Civil War or the atrocities at Malachor and Katar. That's all on Revan or the Emperor. It's not the Council's fault Revan made the choices he did before or after joining the war. He bears the responsibility for his own actions.

The Jedi Council was never going to let the Republic be destroyed. If the Mandalorians weren't stopped, they would have eventually intervened. The end result of the Council's actions would have been the Mandalorian Wars would have been much worse but the Jedi Civil War and the events of Kotor 2 would have been averted altogether. Revan was the one who set all those events in motion. In fact if they had intervened it might have gone worse for the Republic with so many more Jedi joining Revan's reckless crusade. Even if he wasn't leading it, he would have found a way to ensure things worked to his advantage like they did at Malachor.
But because Revan intervened, the events did happen. In order to prevent this from happening the Council should have intervened as soon as the Republic was threatened, in order to fulfill their promise to the Republic,
and prevent the brutal Mandalorian Crusade that was already threatening the Republic (Revan intervened because he saw this was happening, he effectively saved them from destruction). If Revan had never intervened, the Mandalorians would have swept forward, forcing the Jedi to fight them as finally they themselves became threatened. The result would likely have been the fall of the Republic, and if not that, they would have fallen to the Empire soon after. Hence irony of their actions.

As for them not being responsible for the actions of Revan, they were. The Jedi are responsible for the actions of all their members, even those who leave the order. Take the discussion between members of the Jedi Council after the exile of Meetra Surik:
Quote:
Zez-Kai Ell: I fear it is our teachings that may have led Revan to choose the path he did.

Atris: We are not the ones who taught him.

Lonna Vash: We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame.

Kavar: The choice of one was the choice of us all...
As you can see the Council held themselves responsible for Revan's actions. They (apart from Atris - but she was a fanatic and fell to the dark side) would have disagreed with you. And while they may not admit it (Zez-Kai Ell admits it later) it was also their apathy that led to Revan's actions. They are responsible. They let loose a dangerous force to wage war across the galaxy, one that would inevitably lead to the dark side and the repetition of the events of the Great Sith War. Would the same thing have happened anyway? Even under the Council's guidance. No. Revan had the power to manipulate, but ultimately he was just a Jedi, and had no power over the Council's decisions. Their decision would have been final, and the answer to the mass shadow generator would have been no. But it would never have come to this, with the full backing of the Jedi - the victory against the Mandalorians would be a decisive one.

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
11.08.2012 , 03:03 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
But because Revan intervened, the events did happen. In order to prevent this from happening the Council should have intervened as soon as the Republic was threatened, in order to fulfill their promise to the Republic,
and prevent the brutal Mandalorian Crusade that was already threatening the Republic (Revan intervened because he saw this was happening, he effectively saved them from destruction). If Revan had never intervened, the Mandalorians would have swept forward, forcing the Jedi to fight them as finally they themselves became threatened. The result would likely have been the fall of the Republic, and if not that, they would have fallen to the Empire soon after. Hence irony of their actions.
No it would not likely have been the case. The Republic was still a ways from falling. And if the Jedi have intervened later, it would definitely not have fallen if they had defeated the Mandalorians. If they had intervened earlier it would have been worse in the long run. There was a reason The Emperor manipulated the Mandalorians into attacking first. But otherwise there wouldn't have been any of the deaths that followed in Jedi Civil War or the Sith Civil War, so the Republic would have been stronger if Revan had listened to the Council. If the Republic didn't fall from those two conflicts that directly followed the Mandalorian Wars, then it wouldn't have fallen if the Mandalorian Wars had lasted longer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
As for them not being responsible for the actions of Revan, they were. The Jedi are responsible for the actions of all their members, even those who leave the order. Take the discussion between members of the Jedi Council after the exile of Meetra Surik:

As you can see the Council held themselves responsible for Revan's actions. They (apart from Atris - but she was a fanatic and fell to the dark side) would have disagreed with you. And while they may not admit it (Zez-Kai Ell admits it later) it was also their apathy that led to Revan's actions. They are responsible. They let loose a dangerous force to wage war across the galaxy, one that would inevitably lead to the dark side and the repetition of the events of the Great Sith War. Would the same thing have happened anyway? Even under the Council's guidance. No. Revan had the power to manipulate, but ultimately he was just a Jedi, and had no power over the Council's decisions. Their decision would have been final, and the answer to the mass shadow generator would have been no. But it would never have come to this, with the full backing of the Jedi - the victory against the Mandalorians would be a decisive one.
The Council wad not apathetic, they were overcautious. And you're absolutely underestimating Revan's drive to get his own way. He was manipulative enough to be willing to let his own allies (sometimes entire worlds) perish if it benefited him in the long run. He would have found a way to use the Mass Shadow Generator. And even if there had been surviving Council Members that told him no. He could have simply defied them, like he did to go to war in the first place. With so many more Jedi embroiled in the Mandalorian Wars he could well have ended up with more Jedi turning.

Blaming the Council for Revan's actions makes no sense and absurdly absolves Revan of any personal responsibility for the horrors he caused. Revan was effectively a traitor to the Jedi Order. It's not the fault of the people he betrayed that he did what he did. Revan made the choices, he alone bears responsibility for being "a dangerous force that waged war across the galaxy". Just because they didn't stop him and his followers by force doesn't mean they are responsible for everything he did.

Obi-Wan blamed himself for the fall of Anakin Skywalker but it still was, at the end of the day, Anakan's fault.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.08.2012 , 03:25 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by OldVengeance View Post
No it would not likely have been the case. The Republic was still a ways from falling. And if the Jedi have intervened later, it would definitely not have fallen if they had defeated the Mandalorians. If they had intervened earlier it would have been worse. There was a reason The Emperor manipulated the Mandalorians into attacking first. And there wouldn't have been any of the deaths that followed in Jedi Civil War or the Sith Civil War, so the Republic would have been stronger if Revan had listened to the Council. If the Republic didn't fall from those two conflicts that directly followed the Mandalorian Wars, then it wouldn't have fallen if the Mandalorian Wars had lasted longer.
We can only speculate, the fact is though. This didn't happen, Revan did go to war - so debating about this won't get us anywhere. However Revan could never have listened to the council, because in his opinion what they said amounts to doing nothing, they advised caution, that was it, no battle plans or strategies. If Revan didn't leave another Jedi would have, it was inevitable.
Quote:
The Council wad not apathetic, they were overcautious. You're clearly underestimating Revan's drive to get his own way. He was manipulative enough to be willing to let his own allies (sometimes entire worlds) perish if it benefited him in the long run. He would have found a way to use the Mass Shadow Generator. And even if there had been surviving Council Members that told him no. He could have simply defied them, like he did to go to war in the first place. With so many more Jedi embroiled in the Mandalorian Wars he could well have ended up with more Jedi turning.
I believe it amounts to the same thing. In the end they did nothing, that you can't argue with, its whether they would have thats up to debate, but they never did so I'm doubtful on their wisdom.

I concede that Revan had the resolve to get what he wanted, but he wasn't evil, or insane. He didn't truly want to activate the mass shadow generator, he was a Jedi after all. It was a last resort, and last resorts would not have been necessary in a winning war, which is what it would have been if the Jedi intervened.

Quote:
Blaming the Council for Revan's actions makes no sense and absurdly absolves Revan of any personal responsibility for the horrors he caused. Revan was effectively a traitor to the Jedi Order. It's not the fault of the people he betrayed that he did what he did. Revan made the choices, he alone bears responsibility for being "a dangerous force that waged war across the galaxy". Just because they didn't stop him and his followers by force doesn't mean they are responsible for everything he did.
The problem with your argument here is the council disagrees with you, they accepted responsibility for Revan's actions and admitted they were to blame. (Zez-Kai Ell also adimitted they were to blame for the fall of Ulic and Exar Kun.) Your also mirroring the arguments of Atris. Who also believed that Revan was a traitor, and that the council was not to blame for his teachings. Yet they disagreed with her, as they would disagree with you. They admitted that they were arrogant in their teachings and had become misguided, they made a mistake. Joining the war may not have been the solution, but doing nothing certainly was not.

Quote:
Obi-Wan blamed himself for the fall of Anakin Skywalker but it still was, at the end of the day, Anakan's fault.
It was not Obi-Wan's fault entirely. But arguably the Jedi were to blame. After all they taught him everything he knew, and let him be trained at such a old age. However this is a different situation, were Anakin was more involved in his own fall e.g. his revenge against his mother, and his relationship with Padme. Sidious also played a big part in coaxing him to the dark side.

But with Revan, the inaction of the council forced him out of the Order. Unguided by the Jedi and enraged by the Mandalorians, his fall was inevitable - only the Jedi Council could have prevented it. Whereas in the case of Anakin they would have to remove Sidious, Padme and Shimi from the equation, which was impossible. Removing the Mandalorians from the equation was not.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.08.2012 , 05:40 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
We can only speculate, the fact is though. This didn't happen, Revan did go to war - so debating about this won't get us anywhere. However Revan could never have listened to the council, because in his opinion what they said amounts to doing nothing, they advised caution, that was it, no battle plans or strategies. If Revan didn't leave another Jedi would have, it was inevitable.
That's actually wrong. The Jedi weren't just sitting around playing 'go fish', they were analyzing the threat. They were not apathetic, not in the slightest. They were analyzing the threat and saw the big picture. Revan and the Republic saw only the Mandalorians. The Jedi Council knew that something else was driving them. They knew that war with the Mandalorians would lead to greater atrocities. Master Vandar practically saw the Jedi Civil War. They knew fighting in the war would lead to greater dangers. They were also still recovering from the war with Exar Kun. They knew that waging war would lead many down the Dark Path. And you know what? They were right.

I've made my opinion on the Jedi Council's inaction clear. Yes, they were wrong in completely ignoring the Mandalorians, but we can see why. I believe that they should have involved themselves in the war, but in an advisory capacity. This would allow them to prevent Jedi from falling to the Dark Side, as well as Jedi casualties. I would even put Jedi on planets to defend them. Jedi are defenders, not aggressors. Revan abandoned the Jedi teachings and fought the Mandalorians on their terms. He matched their aggression with his own, leading him down the path to the Dark Side.

I don't think we can condemn them for their inaction. Everything they said would happen, did happen.
Added Chapter 44 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
11.08.2012 , 06:52 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I concede that Revan had the resolve to get what he wanted, but he wasn't evil, or insane. He didn't truly want to activate the mass shadow generator, he was a Jedi after all. It was a last resort, and last resorts would not have been necessary in a winning war, which is what it would have been if the Jedi intervened.
Yes he was and yes he did. The Mass Shadow Generator was all part of his carefully laid plans to not only annihilate the last of Mandalorian Resistance but only eliminate any Republic and Jedi forces that were not 100% loyal to him by then. His tactics during the war were absolutely un-Jedi like (such as deliberately sacrificing his men), and the record left behind by him during the Mandalorian Wars (such as the hologram on Kashyyk) indicate that even then he had a very sith like attitude.

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The problem with your argument here is the council disagrees with you, they accepted responsibility for Revan's actions and admitted they were to blame. (Zez-Kai Ell also adimitted they were to blame for the fall of Ulic and Exar Kun.) Your also mirroring the arguments of Atris. Who also believed that Revan was a traitor, and that the council was not to blame for his teachings. Yet they disagreed with her, as they would disagree with you. They admitted that they were arrogant in their teachings and had become misguided, they made a mistake. Joining the war may not have been the solution, but doing nothing certainly was not.
If the Council accepted any direct blame for the fall of Ulic, Revan and Exar Kun then they were wrong to do so. Just like how they were wrong about most everything else in the game. That was the whole point of Kotor 2, it goes out of it's way to make the Jedi Order wrong, regardless of how much sense that made. None of those people used Jedi teachings in their fall. They specifically went against what they had been taught by the Order when falling to the dark side.


Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
It was not Obi-Wan's fault entirely. But arguably the Jedi were to blame. After all they taught him everything he knew, and let him be trained at such a old age. However this is a different situation, were Anakin was more involved in his own fall e.g. his revenge against his mother, and his relationship with Padme. Sidious also played a big part in coaxing him to the dark side.

But with Revan, the inaction of the council forced him out of the Order. Unguided by the Jedi and enraged by the Mandalorians, his fall was inevitable - only the Jedi Council could have prevented it. Whereas in the case of Anakin they would have to remove Sidious, Padme and Shimi from the equation, which was impossible. Removing the Mandalorians from the equation was not.
Apart from the retcon of Revan meeting the Emperor, nobody forced Revan to do anything. He has free will, he made the choice to leave the Order and join the war. He made the choice to do all the things he did until he was further corrupted by the Emperor. Heck, I think Kriea seems to say that he'd already made up his mind about Jedi teaching even before the war.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.08.2012 , 07:25 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I going to be controversial here and say the Jedi Council were not only wrong not to intervene, but stupid, ignorant, generally incompetent and better off dead. (be warned I am a Trayarite and therefore by default hate the Jedi and their stupidy council )

Before I get into full flow, let me point out those leading the council included the likes of Atris - an ignorant, fanatic, dodo head and Vrook Lamar - another dodo head. But I digress.

"Apathy is death" - this basically sums up my argument. The Jedi where apathetic beyond reason and the Republic were not much better. Aurbere's account of the Mandalorian Wars has only strengthened by belief it this. If the Republic and the Jedi had intervened at the first Mandalorian attack, which was brutishly violent and against all their principles, a swifter victory may have been assured. (I say may, this may have been what the Mandalorians had been expecting)

But a fight back should have been no question when the Mandalorians dug deeper into the galaxy. The Republic and the Jedi however where simply selfish and afraid. Selfish in their inaction to defend other planets, merely because they were not part of the Republic. And afraid (the Jedi mainly) that the great sith war would repeat itself due to a fall to the dark side. (Ironically, by not intervening - it did)

But the Republic did eventually, get involved and where right to do so, but the Jedi did not. First let me point out that this practically breaks the Jedi's agreement/alliance with the Republic, who agreed to protect them against all threats, and yet here was a threat to the Republic, and its so-called defenders stood idle. But they had their excuses, meditation on the threat and what not. But what did that achieve? Did they eventually decide, "OK we've considered the enemy enough, now its time to intervene with wisdom and reason", no they stood idle while countless lives where destroyed and never got involved. Their defence is therefore moot. As I said (or Kreia said) Apathy is death. But the Jedi's apathy gets worse. Revan, while I sympathise with him, his actions were foolhardy and dangerous etcera etcera. And the Jedi where right to oppose him, but wait... did they actually oppose him, or just berate him with words? I think you'll find they did the latter, they did nothing to stop him leaving the Order and taking countless Jedi with him. Once again the Council stood idle, and did nothing.

But lets get back to the main point, should they have intervened? Well lets consider what would have happened if they did. Firstly, Revan would not have left the Order. Revan would have never led a brutal campaign against the Mandalorians and taken liberties at the cost of life, the wisdom (although I question its credibility) would have guided him (well not really, he wouldn't have been in charge in the first place so this problem would have been bypassed all together). And the Jedi would have fought as Jedi should, as guardians and protectors of peace, democracy and civilisation. But instead they let him rampage across the galaxy unchecked. The result? Malachor V - one of the greatest atrocities in history. If the Jedi had joined the war, as a unified body, this would have never happened. Anyone who has played KOTOR 2 and experienced the Council (as distasteful as that is ) would have known they would have opposed the creation of such a device. Furthermore it wouldn't have been necessary, with full Jedi backing, it would have been a far swifter and more decisive victory.

Malachor V would have never happened, Malachor would have never been found. Revan and Malak would have never found the Emperor and turn to the dark side, so the Jedi Civil War would never have happened, Telos and Taris would have never been lain to waste. Kreia would never have had a reason for going to Malachor, so the Sith Triumvirate would never have happened, nor the dark wars. In fact Nihilus would have never existed, Sion would probably have died by some other means. The death of Katarr would never have happened. The near-death of the Jedi would never have happened. Atris would have never fallen to the darkside and the Council would never have been killed (probably not a good thing). So much death and chaos could have been prevented.

In fact the only thing that would have happened, is the Great Galatic War would have come early. The Emperor would have no reason to wait and would have attacked. Would the Republic have been able to defend itself? Most likely yes, with the powerful (lightside) Jedi such as Revan, Malak, Meetra and Bastila at their backs the Empire would have been driven back. A complete Sith takeover as the Emperor had envisaged was always impossible. The Republic was simply too firmly rooted in the galaxy. Most likely the war would have panned out as did, and the result would have been the same.

So all in all, the Council was wrong, very wrong. So wrong they should have all been forced to wear dunce hats forever. They chose apathy and were given death. As always, Kreia was right.

(As you might imagine, I've being meaning to say this ever since playing KOTOR 2, and the arguments have just kept building up - hence the length. )

P.S. My short story in progress about Kreia has a Mandalorian Wars debate. And guess what, Kreia wins, and the losers die.

P.P.S Don't take me too seriously here guys, I may sound all fired up but I just want a good debate (preferably where I win). But remember if you do disagree, your as stupidy stupid as Atris and co. and will be given an imaginary/virtual dunce hat to wear as punishment.

EDIT: This is what I really wanted to say to the Jedi Council when they asked me why I defied them, like to see them argue against that.
You are freaking hilarious! LOL!!!!!

As for your argument (I read only a fourth of it) I can see what your saying and I somewhat agree with you.

There's ZERO reason why the Jedi couldn't aid the Republic against the Mandalorians. You can argue this, but the Jedi were completely wrong to 100% percent abstain from the war. I think it was wise of them to observe and "analyze", but there is NO reason that they couldn't provide light support for the Republic. In this since, Revan was right. His immediate goal/intention was pure and justified. We all know that Revan fell, but helping the Republic was the right thing to do.

But seriously, you're hilarious.