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Sab/DF Hybrid vs Sab for PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Gunslinger / Sniper
Sab/DF Hybrid vs Sab for PvP
 

BanetheDarkLord's Avatar


BanetheDarkLord
10.29.2012 , 02:16 PM | #1
Right now I'm leveling up my Gunslinger and thinking ahead into what spec I want to stick with. I've been leveling as a Sab for now, but I'm looking for opinions between these two specs:

Sab (7/31/3): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700rzMZrI0bRRbRrsZh.2
Sab/DF Hybrid (2/16/23): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#70...bRoZhrbkrbhd.2

Obviously there is more survivability in the full Sab tree and I believe there is more damage output in the hybrid. Within the Hybrid I've heard Fighting Spirit or Hold Your Ground is a better choice than Feeling Woozy, would like to hear opinions on the best choice in tier4 talents.
Ry'tan-Juggernaut-55 | Treys'n-Powertech-55 | Velmir-Operative-55 |
Lurruh-Sage-21 | Sellysha-Mercenary-45 | Zarruh-Assassin-41

BanetheDarkLord's Avatar


BanetheDarkLord
10.31.2012 , 02:18 PM | #2
Nothing?
Ry'tan-Juggernaut-55 | Treys'n-Powertech-55 | Velmir-Operative-55 |
Lurruh-Sage-21 | Sellysha-Mercenary-45 | Zarruh-Assassin-41

navierstalks's Avatar


navierstalks
11.02.2012 , 04:43 AM | #3
Firstly, to answer your question about DF tier 4 talents, Fighting Spirit is a must have. DF is an extremely energy intensive tree, with the up front cost of applying DoTs as well as 25 energy Wounding Shots every 9 seconds. Without Fighting Spirit and with no Hemo Blast to provide energy-free GCDs, it is nearly impossible to do decent damage while staying in the >60% high regen bracket.

Onto the main question of the thread. The problem with DF builds in general is that the tree was designed completely in opposition to the main objective of PvP gameplay - focus fire and burst damage. DF thrives when your fights last longer than 21 seconds. If your team is bursting and focus firing correctly, targets should be dropping in less than half that time frame. In a normal fight, a 31-point DF player might have time, after applying DoTs and Flourish Shot, for one cast of Wounding Shots. What you're proposing with your hybrid build is adding another DoT to the opening rotation. Again, if your teammates are doing their jobs, that's just 20 energy you're wasting on maybe 25% of the tooltip damage of Shock Charge, and a valuable GCD that you should have used for burst damage abilities.

Sorry to **** on your hybrid build. I believe it (or some minor variation) is currently the highest theoretical sustained damage build available for gunslingers. It just has no place whatsoever in PvP.
Borneyll, Gunslinger
Miraval, Shadow
Perdigon, Guardian
<Covenant>

Jacksyn's Avatar


Jacksyn
11.02.2012 , 01:52 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by BanetheDarkLord View Post
Right now I'm leveling up my Gunslinger and thinking ahead into what spec I want to stick with. I've been leveling as a Sab for now, but I'm looking for opinions between these two specs:

Sab (7/31/3): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700rzMZrI0bRRbRrsZh.2
Sab/DF Hybrid (2/16/23): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#70...bRoZhrbkrbhd.2

Obviously there is more survivability in the full Sab tree and I believe there is more damage output in the hybrid. Within the Hybrid I've heard Fighting Spirit or Hold Your Ground is a better choice than Feeling Woozy, would like to hear opinions on the best choice in tier4 talents.
For better or worse, the optimal role of the gunslinger in pvp is single-target burst damage. Killing healers fast is our job. We are one-dimensional, but we excel in that one dimension. That means for pvp, sharpshooter is most common.

If you find yourself partnering, for some odd reason, with another gunslinger who is sharpshooter specced, I could see the advantage of having a sab spec in pvp. They are rare, but they are out there.

At the end of the day, play whatever you find fun. But I doubt you will have much fun trying to dirty fight in pvp.
Jaksyn, Jaklinn, Jaksynn, Jaklynn, Jakyle, Jakobbe, Jakor, Jakay
Jakcyn, Grimnor, Jaklen, Jaklene, Jakbrak, Jakleen, Jaksinn, Jaklenn

<Top Gun> The Harbinger

karixx's Avatar


karixx
11.02.2012 , 05:12 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by BanetheDarkLord View Post
Right now I'm leveling up my Gunslinger and thinking ahead into what spec I want to stick with. I've been leveling as a Sab for now, but I'm looking for opinions between these two specs:

Sab (7/31/3): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700rzMZrI0bRRbRrsZh.2
Sab/DF Hybrid (2/16/23): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#70...bRoZhrbkrbhd.2

Obviously there is more survivability in the full Sab tree and I believe there is more damage output in the hybrid. Within the Hybrid I've heard Fighting Spirit or Hold Your Ground is a better choice than Feeling Woozy, would like to hear opinions on the best choice in tier4 talents.
Just hit 50 a week ago on my GS and I like going for off specs. I always wanted to try DF but I saw the potential (the same as you have) for a hybrid of DF/sab. I tried Sab first, then full DF and now that my gear is better I am DF/Sab, though not 2/16/23, I went 0/18/23. I took fighting spirit instead of feeling woozy and reopen wounds (cos crits are fun), depending on how much utility you want you could drop reopen wounds to get feeling woozy. It is really useful.

When all is said and done hybrid is very energy intensive, so you need to be getting energy back from your dot crits (of which shock charge counts), by the same token wounding shots hits harder if you have all 3 dots on the target. I found as hybrid i was an expert at taking down hard to kill targets (ball carriers, healers etc) because your damage is inevitable and your burst with the buffed sabotage charge is massive (but on a long cool down). Wounding shots provides the 'killing blow' that sabotage is missing, but you will run out of energy a lot and and your dots take along time to get full value for spend, so you need to learn when to dot and when to just flourish, sabotage and speed shots for a quick kill instead. I found it's almost better as hyrbid to die quite often rather than be healed up, cos it solves your energy management issues. I've also seen a hybrid that takes Sabotage instead of wounding shots to manage its energy issues, but I think it lacks sustained burst the same way that full Sabo spec does.

It also doesn't work very well when you have poor gear, because there is a wind up for your damage when a Marauder/Jug is in your face 3 GCDs establishing dots and then another for flourishing shots is a long time. You need to be tough to survive the first 5-10 secs against the OP melee, so you need gear that will support that. But you get the hang on snaring them and LOS' and you start getting more warhero gear you will melt faces.

Until my gear got better I played full Sabotage spec at 50. I was hard to kill, I was a nuisance on defense (and offence) and I pumped out quite large damage numbers due to AOE, despite have terribad recruit gear. I can also earn 2.5k heal medic medal and 50k healing medal (hah). If you're clever you can make short work of melee who are better geared than you (cast incen grenade and flyover on yourself while hunkered down and stun/snare them in the area, then open up with sabotage charge and speed shots, even if you die, they die too!).

The problem for Sab spec is for your damage to overwhelm a healer they have to stand in the fire. I basically couldn't kill a healer even if I was left alone to do full rotations on it. I was able to harass them by disrupting them and forcing them to heal themselves quite intently or move around a lot to avoid the fire etc. But especially a well geared merc, I was lucky if I could get them down to 40% health before they would pop back up, that said I was in poorer gear than I am now.

Hope that helps. I don't really want to be sharpshooter, but I may have to spec that way till I get some stronger gear as the problem with the hybrid spec and full DF is you are much softer than Sab or SS spec (you have no ballistic dampeners and don't spend as much time in cover).

Synavix's Avatar


Synavix
11.03.2012 , 07:49 AM | #6
I've read about a significant number of people who use a DF/Sab hybrid only for PvP, and claim it's useless in PvE. I personally found it to be a fun spec in PvP when you just want to mess around in random queues, but it's less useful at objectives and (I assume) in ranked. I don't really queue that often, however, so take my opinion for what it's worth. Like previously said, the energy issues with this spec are just horrible, which is why in premades where you're focusing it's pretty trashy.

When I want to play seriously or play hard objectives/healer killer, I'll spec SS. I haven't played Sab, but I've seen great results from others who do.

Schizo_Toast's Avatar


Schizo_Toast
11.05.2012 , 09:06 PM | #7
I've played pure SS and Sab extensively in PVP. Last week I tried out the hybrid and while the aoe and dots are nice the energy management is much more difficult and to do a full burst rotation on a single target will take almost all of your energy. I still like the spec but I don't really see why anyone would run it over pure DF, SS or Sab besides for fun. IMO the biggest drawback of the spec is that you can't get any of the good defensive talents in SS or Sab which makes you extremely squishy.
B'larg Schizo, Marauder POT5
Blarg's guild adventures: ORW->RSU->ORW->Is Bad->Clutch->???

Umbradomina's Avatar


Umbradomina
11.15.2012 , 05:38 PM | #8
Just my 2... I have played a Sabo-spec almost since launch, and have a blast playing it. MM is too turret-like, and I found DF a bit boring. Being an objective-oriented player, Sabo suited my play style just fine. Granted, I don't burn down healers, but I make them run like hell. If they're running, they're not healing. I'm almost always in the top 2-3 in damage/kills/medals, and almost always wind up with at least 1 mvp vote (for what that's worth), win or lose.

Respecs are free now, so give Sabo a shot.. it'll be fun!
Old age and treachery will usually win out over youth and skill.

Kattla's Avatar


Kattla
11.24.2012 , 02:23 AM | #9
My simplistic opinions.
Dirty fighting - You'll hurt your enemies.
Sab - You'll stop our enemies.
SS - You'll kill your enemy.
Sab-DF hybrid - You'll really gonna hurt the enemy.

Jenzali's Avatar


Jenzali
11.24.2012 , 03:51 AM | #10
I've been switching back and forth between full DF and the hybrid sab/DF in the past couple weeks since hitting 50. I am mostly in augmented Battlemaster gear with a few WH pieces but here's the observations of a fairly inexperienced Gunslinger, assuming the two standard builds:

Hybrid - http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#70...bRoZGbbkrMhd.2
Pros:
- Highest possible burst
- More powerful AoEs
- Shorter cooldown on Thermal and Flash Grenades

Cons:
- Poor energy management - if your DoTs are not reapplying themselves after falling off they do not have additional crit chances for the extended 9 seconds
- Poor survivability due to missing Ballistic Dampers
- Lower accuracy due to missing Sharpshooter talent. I dropped below 105% accuracy without this and as a result was missing a noticeably larger amount, but perhaps you could itemize to correct this.
- Extremely slow setup (5 GCDs) for the aforementioned highest possible burst, almost to the point of impracticality - your sequence is Flourish Shot, Shrap Bomb, Vital Shot, Shock Charge, Sabotage Charge, Wounding Shots, Speed Shot. At any high level of play burst needs to happen much faster than this. However depending on situation you may be able to skip Shock Charge.
- Can not reveal stealthers due to DoTs not reapplying
- No talent points available for a snare on either Shock Charge or Shrap Bomb
- Harder to kill targets in execute range

Full DF - http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#70...cZGbbkrrhdhR.2
Pros:
- Ballistic Dampers - incredible survivability tool, amplified by the mobility of this spec. If you are going in and out of cover every 6 seconds you can keep this up nearly all the time. With the hybrid spec I found I was dying to Rage Smashes all the time. Also very nice defense against stealthers, they tend to have very powerful openers and you are reducing them by 30%
- Incredible energy generation due to DoTs reapplying after falling off. Sometimes I mass apply Vital Shot to several players just for the future energy gain
- Hemorraging blast costs no energy and is almost as good as the hybrid's Sabotage Charge with Contingency Charges
- Reapplying DoTs pull stealthers out of stealth, yes even Shadows using Resilience or Scoundrels with Lucky Dodge.
- DoTs do more damage in execute range, I found they were often killing people even after I died.

Cons:
- Longer cooldown on Thermal and Flash Grenades
- Weaker AoE
- Sabotage Charge is almost not worth using
- The re-application of DoTs seems to put you back in combat no matter where you are on the map, even if you are respawning after death. This was incredibly annoying for me as I would be walking back to the objective without sprint and would have to wait obscene times to get out of combat just to heal up if no healer was around. This but really needs to be fixed This is game-breaking in my opinion - if I am solo queuing without a healer it's probably better just to go full Saboteur or Sharpshooter.

Overall I have decided that full DF is superior in most situations.
Dashto Vant - Arsenal Mercenary - The most dashing bounty hunter in the galaxy.