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Lost Island HM should have better loot.

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Koordynator's Avatar


Koordynator
12.28.2012 , 08:30 AM | #391
Well done, well said.

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
12.28.2012 , 10:30 AM | #392
Quote: Originally Posted by Saphra View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqplvW4Xpu4

So... HM LI is very doable in Tionese/MK-1 Recruit gear. By 3 people. (LR-5 one shotted)

It's very understandable that a group that's unfamiliar with the mechanics of the FP will likely encounter difficulties, but when you learn how the bosses work, you can do it. When someone walks into a HM of any kind, let alone a clearly labelled tier 2 HM, they should expect to have to put forth some effort to learn and execute the strategies required to complete the FP. If "the majority" doesn't want to do that, there's another option: Some people choose to forgo effort and overgear for things, and that's an acceptable solution as well, but they shouldn't expect to be rewarded beyond the already generous reward of 5 (plus 8, if the weekly is involved) BH comms, which can be used to buy most of the second best gear in the game.
Of course it's doable by 3 people in tionese... with voice communication, previous experience, knows their class well etc. Are you kidding me?

The fact you seem to be forgetting is the argument is the gear should not be recommended for fresh 50 PuGs for this flashpoint, try playing with a random PuG group from group finder with everyone in just tionese and see if you get far.

The argument that "you can do it in tionese so everyone else can" is a bit like the devs turning around and saying they can do TFB naked now so it won't drop gear any more.

Gear requirements should be about finding a perfect balance of something that's not too easy but not too hard either, not just finding someone that's done it once in a certain piece of gear and saying that's the requirement.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

Ephesia's Avatar


Ephesia
12.28.2012 , 10:57 AM | #393
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
Of course it's doable by 3 people in tionese... with voice communication, previous experience, knows their class well etc. Are you kidding me?

The fact you seem to be forgetting is the argument is the gear should not be recommended for fresh 50 PuGs for this flashpoint, try playing with a random PuG group from group finder with everyone in just tionese and see if you get far.

The argument that "you can do it in tionese so everyone else can" is a bit like the devs turning around and saying they can do TFB naked now so it won't drop gear any more.

Gear requirements should be about finding a perfect balance of something that's not too easy but not too hard either, not just finding someone that's done it once in a certain piece of gear and saying that's the requirement.
The fact that 3 people in Tionese can do it immediately means it can be done by 4 people in Tionese, New 50 or not. Just because it is challenging that way does not mean it is not intended as such. For some reason players like expect to be spoonfed instead of you trying to get better in the game. Why do you want standards to fall to your level, instead of you striving to reach up the higher standard, and demand that you get fed?
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Hovergame's Avatar


Hovergame
12.28.2012 , 11:24 AM | #394
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
Of course it's doable by 3 people in tionese... with voice communication, previous experience, knows their class well etc. Are you kidding me?

The fact you seem to be forgetting is the argument is the gear should not be recommended for fresh 50 PuGs for this flashpoint, try playing with a random PuG group from group finder with everyone in just tionese and see if you get far.

The argument that "you can do it in tionese so everyone else can" is a bit like the devs turning around and saying they can do TFB naked now so it won't drop gear any more.

Gear requirements should be about finding a perfect balance of something that's not too easy but not too hard either, not just finding someone that's done it once in a certain piece of gear and saying that's the requirement.
And what you are saying is "EC HM should drop better pieces since most players need BH to pass it". they sucks, they are not rewarded, end of the story.

This FP drops THREE COLUMI PIECE and ONE RAKATA. The COLUMI MH and the RAKATA CHEST are REALLY HARDER to get in an operation. Holu hell, I wonder what's next ? This FP should drop some level 63 piece, like MH, offhand ?

If you can't pass it in Tionese, don't come here and post "OMG OMG OMG THIS IS TOO HARD !!! NERF NERF NERF OR bETTER LOOT OMG OMG OMG" but "what can I do to be better ?". This a the difference between a Noob and a Newb(ie) :
-The Noob is bad but doesn't accept it. He asks for nerfs and better loot when he cannot pass something. And if someone shows them the truth (Mox is a possibility), he blames the gear.
-The Newbie is bad (in most cases, he's discovering and needs practice) but he knows it. He tries to become better.

this FP is balanced for Tionese, like TfB HM is balanced for a full 61-geared group. EC HM is balanced for a full 58-geared group, without augments. We proved it by ceaning them, and EC HM in Rakata without augments is harder than LI HM in Tionese .....

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.28.2012 , 11:26 AM | #395
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
Of course it's doable by 3 people in tionese... with voice communication, previous experience, knows their class well etc. Are you kidding me?

The fact you seem to be forgetting is the argument is the gear should not be recommended for fresh 50 PuGs for this flashpoint, try playing with a random PuG group from group finder with everyone in just tionese and see if you get far.

The argument that "you can do it in tionese so everyone else can" is a bit like the devs turning around and saying they can do TFB naked now so it won't drop gear any more.

Gear requirements should be about finding a perfect balance of something that's not too easy but not too hard either, not just finding someone that's done it once in a certain piece of gear and saying that's the requirement.
I think you missed the point while still kind of getting it.

The movie shows that gear is *not a factor*: paying attention, knowing the fight and executing it *is a factor*.

You don't need voice communication. But you do need everyone to have (quoting you) "previous experience, knows their class well, etc".

HM LI doesn't *need* better gear drops. It simply states in a very upfront manner: "you have to be "this high" to ride this amusement". If you don't meet the "height requirement" don't do it. If you insist on doing it, make sure that you are up to it.

There is a reason it is not selected by default in Group Finder. When people go to select it there is a pop-up warning you that this content is "harder" and requires a certain level of gear. If people ignore that and go in anyway that is not the game's fault.

HM LI is a Tier 2 HM. It is a step up from the Tier 1 HMs and a step down from the SM OPs. Its rewards reflect that. The bosses drop Columi (instead of just the last boss as in the Tier 1 HMs) and the last boss drops the one piece of Columi not available by doing the Tier 1 HMs (the mainhand weapon) and a piece from the next gear level (Rakata chest).

If you want those rewards and you feel up to the challenge of doing this Tier 2 HM, select it in GF and go do it. If you find yourself in a group with people who are not ready for it, explain to them that this instance is not for them and that they have to "grow a little more" so that they can meet the "height requirement". Exit the group and queue again: at some point you will be queued with people who do have the "height requirement" and you will have a fun time and be rewarded accordingly.

Don't ask for the rewards to be increased. Don't ask for the FP to be nerfed. Educate people with you that it isn't for everyone. (If you are one of those that isn't ready for it, consider yourself "educated". )
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
12.28.2012 , 11:48 AM | #396
Quote: Originally Posted by Ephesia View Post
The fact that 3 people in Tionese can do it immediately means it can be done by 4 people in Tionese, New 50 or not. Just because it is challenging that way does not mean it is not intended as such. For some reason players like expect to be spoonfed instead of you trying to get better in the game. Why do you want standards to fall to your level, instead of you striving to reach up the higher standard, and demand that you get fed?
My level? FYI I've tanked and DPS'ed LI HM with two of my alts in columi at the time (now they are full BH/optimized BH and pretty much storm through it), I have zero problem with LI HM myself.

The problem is when I see fresh 50's join a group wearing tionese who have little endgame experience, sure you can do LI HM in tionese when you have a voice server, already know tactics and know your class inside out but what about the fresh 50 who just got through the class story by facerolling one or two buttons and ignoring mechanics because they've been too forgiving up to that point, you're telling me that a player with zero endgame experience should be allowed to grab a tionese set and just jump straight in to LI HM simply because either you or a guild you know who know the mechanics inside out can do it in that gear?

From what I've seen from a PuG perspective is tionese players fail 99% of the time, not because the gear isn't enough but they don't have the experience, that's even more occurrent after the free tionese set was handed out in 1.6. How can you justify telling fresh players it's OK to try a tier 2 when really they should stick to the tier 1's for a while and learn the ropes?

That's what exactly you're doing by telling them it's OK and that they're bad for having more gear than the requirement, the only thing that's going to come from it is un-installs from frustration and catering for the few doesn't help BW gain more subs.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.28.2012 , 12:09 PM | #397
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
My level? FYI I've tanked and DPS'ed LI HM with two of my alts in columi at the time (now they are full BH/optimized BH and pretty much storm through it), I have zero problem with LI HM myself.

The problem is when I see fresh 50's join a group wearing tionese who have little endgame experience, sure you can do LI HM in tionese when you have a voice server, already know tactics and know your class inside out but what about the fresh 50 who just got through the class story by facerolling one or two buttons and ignoring mechanics because they've been too forgiving up to that point, you're telling me that a player with zero endgame experience should be allowed to grab a tionese set and just jump straight in to LI HM simply because either you or a guild you know who know the mechanics inside out can do it in that gear?

From what I've seen from a PuG perspective is tionese players fail 99% of the time, not because the gear isn't enough but they don't have the experience, that's even more occurrent after the free tionese set was handed out in 1.6. How can you justify telling fresh players it's OK to try a tier 2 when really they should stick to the tier 1's for a while and learn the ropes?

That's what exactly you're doing by telling them it's OK and that they're bad for having more gear than the requirement, the only thing that's going to come from it is un-installs from frustration and catering for the few doesn't help BW gain more subs.
Ahhh... I see where you are coming from. (Ignore my "If you are one of those that isn't ready for it, consider yourself "educated"." dig at you. )

The fact is that the game *does not* say it is OK for players in Tionese to go do HM LI.

Go into Group Finder. The "Tier 2" checkbox is unselected by default. When you hover your mouse over it you get an explicit explanation of what is expected of you (gear wise) if you want to do that content.

As I said in my post before yours, if people are still selecting it when they are not ready for it it is not the game's fault. It is their fault. Not the "game's", not "yours" and not "mine". Theirs.
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

FlyinSpaghetti's Avatar


FlyinSpaghetti
12.28.2012 , 12:30 PM | #398
Quote: Originally Posted by ZeroPlus View Post
The fact is that the game *does not* say it is OK for players in Tionese to go do HM LI.
.
One of BW has already said in this topic (see first BW post) that the flashpoint is "tightly balanced for tionese", that's what I'm having a dig at. It's sending the wrong message that a fresh 50 with no endgame experience can PuG it in tionese. There is no way you can just jump into LI HM as your first ever HM flashpoint and succeed, all you will be doing is wasting everyone's time.

As for gear drops, I'm not saying they should fill it full of rakata however they should get rid of the disappointing drops like tionese crystals and replace the with something more worthwhile as well as the quest reward itself should be a columi comm rather than a tionese one. There's too much junk in this flashpoint considering the difficulty and the only thing remotely exciting after the chest and mainhand drop is the very rare chance of a pet.
Quote: Originally Posted by BaronV View Post
Thats no moon... thats a CARTEL COIN!

ZeroPlus's Avatar


ZeroPlus
12.28.2012 , 01:59 PM | #399
Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
One of BW has already said in this topic (see first BW post) that the flashpoint is "tightly balanced for tionese", that's what I'm having a dig at. It's sending the wrong message that a fresh 50 with no endgame experience can PuG it in tionese. There is no way you can just jump into LI HM as your first ever HM flashpoint and succeed, all you will be doing is wasting everyone's time.
OK. Again I see where you coming from.

But... don't you think you are taking the "tightly balaced for tionese" a little out of context? Here is where the quote was taken from:
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.
I really don't see where Jesse Sky is saying that "a fresh 50 with no endgame experience can PuG it in tionese". When you see the whole quote, you see that he actually states that it is "balanced very tightly" and that "the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based". He goes on to say "Small mistakes can easily wipe the group" and "Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required". The kicker is actually this "loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded".

Quote: Originally Posted by FlyinSpaghetti View Post
As for gear drops, I'm not saying they should fill it full of rakata however they should get rid of the disappointing drops like tionese crystals and replace the with something more worthwhile as well as the quest reward itself should be a columi comm rather than a tionese one. There's too much junk in this flashpoint considering the difficulty and the only thing remotely exciting after the chest and mainhand drop is the very rare chance of a pet.
Tionese crystals are a great way to make some extra money: 25 of them will buy you a neat little "Ancient Artifact Storage Box" from the Tionese vendor that will contain a level 50 artifact item in it.

Having said that, the Bioware post also had this there:
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post

That's not to say that we won't be re-examining gear progression going forward. It just happened that when Lost Island was released (1.2), it made sense to us to offer new players and alternate route to the Rakata chest and Columi main hand while infusing the weekly Flashpoint missions with a bit more challenge for players who had geared past most Flashpoints.
So, at some point, things may change in HM LI.
If you seek answers, you must always ask questions. - Master Vandar Tokare.

[Suggestion] Add another Blaster Pistol with the "A-300 Heavy Sonic Needler" model = DONE!

hawrekaka's Avatar


hawrekaka
12.30.2012 , 05:57 AM | #400
Quote: Originally Posted by Rerkk View Post
not calling for a nerf on the flashpoint, its fine other than the loot in my opinion.

My guild and i finally got through lost island up to the last boss before calling it due to time. and we all realized after downing the first 2 bosses (sentinal droid and the Sav-rak) that the loot in that flashpoint is kinda pointless because we are all already full columi with rakata implants and ear as usual and we didnt benefit from any of the boss fights except for the satisfaction of beating them. yes, i know Lorrick drops the columi mainhand and the rakata chest, but that is still barely an upgrade.

my point: Since Lost island HM is easily the hardest flashpoint out there at this time, it should have better drops than just tionese crystals/comms and the more common of the columi drops (pants, boots). I loved doing this flashpoint, it was alot of fun for my team, but we felt the drops were under par due to the fact the majortiy of everyone that does this FP is in full columi if not better.

Great job BioWare on making a challenging and fun Flashpoint, but could use some better loot.

Thanks for reading, just speakin my thoughts.
Your talking about it as if LI HM is really really hard! LOL I can do it with a pug with no effort at all when i do it i multitask some other things meanwhile, Kephess NiM is the real deal.