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Jedi and Violence


ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
07.30.2012 , 11:09 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Cavell View Post
You sure you're actually an academic at an accredited institution?
Yes. Quite sure. Thank you for trying to attack the poster in place of the argument.

Quote:
That's an allied combatant, not a peacekeeper.
Allied combatants are often referred to as "peacekeeping forces" depending on the situation. I could go much further into detail on that but to do so would require me to reference real world events and nations. We are not allowed to do that on these forums.

Quote:
Regardless, all modern forces, when offered their opponents' unconditional surrender, regardless of who started the hostilities, are obliged to take it lest they wish to be regarded as war criminals. The same is true for...well, pretty much anyone who follows any sort of rules or laws, come to think of it. A cop's not allowed to decide a suspect represents too much of an immediate risk to arrest, and thus simply kill them. Soldiers are not allowed to make the determination that their enemies' waving of the white flag isn't earnest enough, and thus kill them. According to you - and only you, it should be noted - Jedi are.
Okay... First of all... Star Wars isn't our world and the military forces have never followed the same rules so what causes someone to be a War Criminal in real life might not be the same in Star Wars. Heck, in Star Wars genocide a peaceful species who has surrendered isn't always a War Crime.

As to your analogy about cops and soldiers... Sorry but no. If a cop is trying to arrest a suspect and the suspect is holding a handgun and has not put it away, and more importantly is aiming it at the Cop then the cop can and will shoot the suspect.

Your example of Palpatine.

Palpatine was actively firing Force Lightning at Mace Windu. That is the same as having a loaded gun in his hand.

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They follow a far less humane code of conduct when it comes to battle than we (or they) think. According to you, anyway.
Again you resort to putting words in my mouth. That is strike two. Please keep your comments on the topic. Failure to do so will result in my discontinuation of conversation with you.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

Cavell's Avatar


Cavell
07.30.2012 , 11:32 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
Yes. Quite sure. Thank you for trying to attack the poster in place of the argument.
Shall I dredge up posts where you and your supporters make use of your supposed credentials in an effort to 'win' past arguments to show the relevance of the question? Posting history is such a boon, sometimes.

Quote:
Allied combatants are often referred to as "peacekeeping forces" depending on the situation.
And terrorists are often referred to as "freedom fighters." Hence why objective definitions are useful. The objective definition of peacekeeping forces, by the way, does not include allied combatants.

Quote:
Okay... First of all... Star Wars isn't our world and the military forces have never followed the same rules so what causes someone to be a War Criminal in real life might not be the same in Star Wars. Heck, in Star Wars genocide a peaceful species who has surrendered isn't always a War Crime.
Nowhere did I make the argument that they did. I simply pointed out that by our standards, the Jedi would in fact be war criminals. You've spent several posts now arguing against that assertion, which makes your concession here somewhat...confusing. I'm working on the assumption that you remember your own posts, of course.

Quote:
Your example of Palpatine.

Palpatine was actively firing Force Lightning at Mace Windu. That is the same as having a loaded gun in his hand.
I suggest you actually watch the scene sometime. Mace makes the decision that Palpatine's too dangerous to live without Force Lightning being actively shot at him at the time. He was, in fact, cowering on a window ledge and taking no offensive actions, but instead pleading with Anakin for his life. We, with the meta-knowledge of viewers, know it was entirely insincere. Jedi, I presume, aren't allowed to work from meta-knowledge of the narrative.

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Again you resort to putting words in my mouth. That is strike two. Please keep your comments on the topic. Failure to do so will result in my discontinuation of conversation with you.
I'm pretty sure you meant that as some sort of threat, rather than to provide an incentive for off-topic commentary. You may want to rethink that one as well.

Incidentally, Bioware seems to disagree with pretty much everything you've said regarding the Jedi code. Spoilers follow:

Spoiler

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
07.30.2012 , 11:34 AM | #23
There are some tenants with the Jedi that may help explain this better.

The Jedi are the guardians of civilization, yet do not allow civilization to destroy needlessly.
Jedi must put the needs of the community above the needs of individuals.
A Jedi must protect the weak and defenseless from evil.
Jedi must always cooperate in battle or crisis.


Conquer Aggression

A sizable number of Jedi, in training, confused the meanings of attack, defense and aggression. Thus Younglings were taught that it was possible for a Jedi to strike without aggression, so long as they acted without recklessness, hatred or anger. A Jedi was permitted to kill in self-defense—only if there was no other option. However, Jedi instructors taught their students that killing, no matter what the circumstances, was not to become commonplace. To conquer aggression, even in combat, a Jedi must have explored every other option, including surrender, before resorting to using lethal force. Jedi who depended on murder were close to the Dark Side of the Force.

Honor Life

Jedi were expected never to commit murder, for any reason. However, if confronted with a life-or-death struggle, a Jedi was permitted to kill to complete their mission. This act was not encouraged, as ending life strengthened the dark side; however, if the act was justified—if it saved others' lives, or if the Jedi was acting on the will of the Force—then the light side was equally strengthened. Jedi were also expected to think of those they had killed, and to think of the suffering caused by their deaths. A Jedi who did not care about his victims was on the path to the dark side.

Render Aid
Jedi were obliged to help those in need of aid whenever possible, and were expected to be able to prioritize quickly. Jedi were taught that while saving one life was important, saving many lives was even more so. This principle did not mean a Jedi had to abandon other goals in every circumstance, but merely that a Jedi must do his or her best to make sure that they aided those who were most in need of assistance.

Defend The Weak
Similarly, a Jedi was expected to defend the weak from those who oppressed them, ranging from small-scale suffering at the hands of an individual to large-scale enslavement of entire species. However, Jedi were taught to remember that all may not have been as it seemed, and that they should respect other cultures, even if they clashed with a Jedi's moral or ethical code. Jedi were also warned not to act in areas out of their jurisdiction, and to always consider the consequences of their actions.


In looking at the tenants you will see defending can cover a variety of items. I'm not sure about you but if I saw someone being harrassed/attack by someone could I as a Jedi stand there or walk by and do nothing? Not me, not doing something to stop the situation is worse than doing something.

And regardless of what you may believe each Jedi has to determine what is right for her/him. The code is merely a guide not an absolute rule. Will some jedi act without thinking? Sure because they are human/aliens and have feelings and emotions. No one is perfect and 100% correct all the time. Jedi make mistakes.

Also remember for the Jedi you see defending/fighting there are other Jedi behind the scenes such as the healers, diplomats, etc. Not every single Jedi is on the battlefield or sent to fight.
A southern girl is a girl who knows full well that she can open a door for herself but prefers for the gentleman to do it because it demonstrates a sense of respect. Current Guild Roleplay: Redemption: The battle of Xa Fel https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ps/r-1rAjOuo30

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
07.30.2012 , 11:41 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Cavell View Post
Nowhere did I make the argument that they did. I simply pointed out that by our standards, the Jedi would in fact be war criminals. You've spent several posts now arguing against that assertion, which makes your concession here somewhat...confusing. I'm working on the assumption that you remember your own posts, of course.
No, not "the" Jedi. At least not if this is about Mace Windu.Mace Windu would have been a Cop who killed a criminal in custody. That's his crime, not that of the Jedi order. It's not sure if the Jedi order would have tolerated it or if Windu would have been removed from the Council.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall

jedimasterjac's Avatar


jedimasterjac
07.30.2012 , 11:52 AM | #25
I don't care. My main's now a 50 Bounty hunter, so... (I should update my sig)
"Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."

―Darth Traya, to the Jedi Exile

Cavell's Avatar


Cavell
07.30.2012 , 03:39 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
No, not "the" Jedi. At least not if this is about Mace Windu.Mace Windu would have been a Cop who killed a criminal in custody. That's his crime, not that of the Jedi order. It's not sure if the Jedi order would have tolerated it or if Windu would have been removed from the Council.
Nor am I, which is what I was attempting to find out. Walsh's defense of Windu's actions, however, make it perfectly clear he believes they would not only have tolerated it, but considered it de rigeur for a Jedi. That's the assertion I've been arguing against because, frankly, it seems ludicrous.

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
07.31.2012 , 01:50 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Cavell View Post
Nor am I, which is what I was attempting to find out. Walsh's defense of Windu's actions, however, make it perfectly clear he believes they would not only have tolerated it, but considered it de rigeur for a Jedi. That's the assertion I've been arguing against because, frankly, it seems ludicrous.
It all depends.

In the novelization we get a look into Mace's mindset about that moment that the movie doesn't show. The Council, most likely, wouldn't have kicked him off the Council for it, but might have cautioned him about his actions. You do understand that Palpatine had just killed 3 Jedi Masters in less than a second and had revealed himself to be the Sith Lord who orchestrated the war and killed trillions of sentient beings.

That has to be taken into account and the Jedi Order clearly would have.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

Cavell's Avatar


Cavell
07.31.2012 , 06:31 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh View Post
It all depends.

In the novelization we get a look into Mace's mindset about that moment that the movie doesn't show. The Council, most likely, wouldn't have kicked him off the Council for it, but might have cautioned him about his actions. You do understand that Palpatine had just killed 3 Jedi Masters in less than a second and had revealed himself to be the Sith Lord who orchestrated the war and killed trillions of sentient beings.

That has to be taken into account and the Jedi Order clearly would have.
So we can also add, "As long as the Jedi's upset enough, it's cool if he executes a prisoner attempting to surrender," to, "As long as he's pretty sure it's not a genuine attempt to surrender, it's cool if he executes a prisoner attempting to surrender," to the Jedi code of conduct?

Look, I realize you're on the Jedi's side in any argument you engage in about them, but you're painting yourself into some pretty amusing corners here.

Auraleus's Avatar


Auraleus
07.31.2012 , 09:19 AM | #29
Cavell hit it on the nose. While HK was wrong in defining Jedi as pacifists (they obviously are not), there is the central Jedi hypocrisy: We only attack in defense of ourselves or others, but we define defense of ourselves or others as anything we don't like.

His point #2 is absolutely correct. The definition of "defense" is so broad that it is pretty much meaningless. As shown by this debate itself, any action no matter how hostile or aggressive can be justified as defensive, rendering the entire concept useless.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
07.31.2012 , 09:53 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Auraleus View Post
Cavell hit it on the nose. While HK was wrong in defining Jedi as pacifists (they obviously are not), there is the central Jedi hypocrisy: We only attack in defense of ourselves or others, but we define defense of ourselves or others as anything we don't like.

His point #2 is absolutely correct. The definition of "defense" is so broad that it is pretty much meaningless. As shown by this debate itself, any action no matter how hostile or aggressive can be justified as defensive, rendering the entire concept useless.
Not every Jedi and not every Jedi council is hypocritical on that. Some do it like you described, some don't. The Jedi Council didn't like Palpatine for a long time, but they did only attack him after finding out the truth. They didn't like the corruption of the Senate, but the accepted it.
Luke didn't like Jabba, but he only attacked when Jabba left him no choice.

Of course you have to draw the line of "defense of ourselves and others" yourself, but most Jedi don't do it in a hypocritical way.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall