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Jedi and Violence


Jaigen's Avatar


Jaigen
08.03.2012 , 08:25 AM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
Wait, you blame the Republic for wanting revenge at the old Sith Empire, but not the Sith Empire for wanting revenge on the Republic? What did you say about hypocricy?

But honestly, the Republic has done some pretty bad things in the past. Not only the genocide on the Sith. The Pius Dea crusades were horrible. But in game time, the republic is ashamed of the end of the Great Hyperspace War. So ashamed they either try to hide it or blame the Jedi for it.
In the Empire, those things would be remembered as "Our Glorious History".

And right now I'm convinced that only Revan and HK-47 knew about the genocide plan. Everything else makes no sense. I know the Jedi Council, and they would never accept something like that. And the Supreme Chancellor wouldn't either. Hell, even General Garza would doubt the sanity of someone who suggests this.
I dont say that the old sith are the wronged party. But to genocide an entire race because they where deceived in attacking the republic by their own leader is going way to far. So yeah the republic where not justified to genocide the sith but the sith are right now completely justified in destroying the republic. Would you trust a people that butchered your ancestors of? . And im not convinced that the republic didnt know about revans little scheme. They used genocide before why not now?

Helig's Avatar


Helig
08.03.2012 , 09:01 AM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
2 words: domination project. And for the record both are bullies but one acknowledges that while the other one tries desperately say he is not while he definitely is one. But as long as you know that you are doing it wrong you can change (that's why their are quite a few progressive members within the sith empire like malgus). Hiding from it and covering with a thin veneer righteousness makes it that much more difficult to change.
What domination project? There was only project Noble Focus, which was, basically, experimenting on dangerous criminals of various species, approved by exactly one corrupt Senator who kept the rest of the Republic in the dark.

Uh. The Imperials "don't know" that what they're doing is wrong. Almost every single Imperial NPC I've met during my Imperial character playthroughs were 100% certain that what they're doing is for the good of the Galaxy - including the slaughter of civilian population. Malgus is (or would be, had he succeeded) a dictator. He wanted conquest, he wanted "order" (read: oppression, judging by his methods and ambitions. Domination through power is exactly oppression). He was just a little more opportunistic and less xenophobic. He was not being "progressive". He was being adaptive.

You're speaking as if the entire Senate and Rep Military are conspiring against their citizens, feeding them propaganda about freedom and democracy, while milking and oppressing the population. Hint - not the case. There are rotten eggs, and they don't act in the open. Because if they'd be discovered with sufficient proof, they'd be tried and punished.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
Nice walsh you just summed up why the empire is morally better then the republic i couldn't have done it better myself . But of course the Sith where not dark Jedi. In fact the whole sith empire was deceived in fighting the republic by their own leader Naga Shadow. While large amount of sith didnt want to fight btw. I cannot really blame the current empire for wanting revenge when the republic genocided your people and tires that same stunt again with Revan. But hey genocide is A-okay if your the good guys right?
Jaw-numbingly biased. For every Republic genocide (exactly one, even if it happened exactly how Gnost-Dural, who, to quote the writers, worked on incomplete information and whose assessment could be wrong, or incomplete, described it) there are at least several Imperial ones (Evocii genocide factory - just to please the Hutts and little else, as well as "numerous" obscure genocide programs against other select species, among the more obvious things). Such drastic measures are absolute last resort for the Republic, yet Empire hands out war crimes like candy. Being "good guy" doesn't mean having clean hands. Exactly what I was talking about. Unrealistic expectations.

An Imperial kid walks up to a Republic kid and punches him in the nose, then starts to talk trash about how he'll beat him half to death, take his lunch money, kill his hamster pet and feed it to his cat, all because the Rep kid didn't allow the Imp kid to run him off his seat in the class. The Republic kid says he doesn't like violence and doesn't want to fight but the Imperial kid laughs at him and proceeds to beat him.

The Republic kid gets up and beats the Imperial kid, hurting him badly. So I'll ask again. Who is the "better" person? The one who declared his violent intentions and attacked, or the one who declared himself non-violent, but brutally lashed out when he was out of options beside turning belly up?
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
08.03.2012 , 09:30 AM | #93
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
I dont say that the old sith are the wronged party. But to genocide an entire race because they where deceived in attacking the republic by their own leader is going way to far. So yeah the republic where not justified to genocide the sith but the sith are right now completely justified in destroying the republic. Would you trust a people that butchered your ancestors of? . And im not convinced that the republic didnt know about revans little scheme. They used genocide before why not now?
Okay I might believe that if the Sith didn't have a history of trying to destroy entire races of allens just because they are aliens. Before you say they don't do that. Go do the republic quest in Nar Shadda called genocide and you see there was a plot to destroy an entire race of aliens for no other reason that they are aliens and the Empire doesn't care very much for aliens.
A southern girl is a girl who knows full well that she can open a door for herself but prefers for the gentleman to do it because it demonstrates a sense of respect. Current Guild Roleplay: A Time for Renewal[ https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ps/sK3jz376Zu8

ProfessorWalsh's Avatar


ProfessorWalsh
08.03.2012 , 12:43 PM | #94
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
I dont say that the old sith are the wronged party. But to genocide an entire race because they where deceived in attacking the republic by their own leader is going way to far. So yeah the republic where not justified to genocide the sith but the sith are right now completely justified in destroying the republic. Would you trust a people that butchered your ancestors of? . And im not convinced that the republic didnt know about revans little scheme. They used genocide before why not now?
1. The Republic never knew the Sith were deceived.
2. The Republic offered the Sith numerous chances to surrender.
3. The Sith, even when they were defeated, continued to swear up and down that they would destroy the Republic.
4. Rather than surrender the Sith resorted to killing their own women and children and engaging in suicide attacks against the Republic.

The Republic didn't "genocide" the Sith. The Sith genocided themselves.
"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."
~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)
Host of the Jedi Council stream also author of From the Journal of Val Starwind

DarthNephthys's Avatar


DarthNephthys
08.03.2012 , 12:46 PM | #95
The Jedi just don't like to use the Force to kill people. Luke is strong enough to kill almost all his opponents by snapping their necks, but he doesn't do against opponents like Lumiya that even though he could. Likewise Yoda can smash tank transports together yet only pushes Sidious across a room. Hence Yoda's words in ESB about only using the Force in defense.

Other than that Jedi carve people up like butter. Apparently there's a difference between using the Force to empower your limbs to cut someones head off and using the Force to rip his head off.

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
08.03.2012 , 02:10 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaigen View Post
I dont say that the old sith are the wronged party. But to genocide an entire race because they where deceived in attacking the republic by their own leader is going way to far. So yeah the republic where not justified to genocide the sith but the sith are right now completely justified in destroying the republic. Would you trust a people that butchered your ancestors of? . And im not convinced that the republic didnt know about revans little scheme. They used genocide before why not now?
You know, I'm from a country that comitted genocide in the past. Do you think the countries inhabited by the children of the victims would now be completely justified in destroying my country?

You know, the Sith Empire is based on conquest. They attacked lots of other worlds before the republic. Many nations in Star Wars are like this, and wanting conquest isn't good, but in the Star Wars setting it is a minor evil. I'd call the Empire's talk about the "justice for genocide" hypocrisy too. In fact they don't distinguish between republic worlds, allies and neutral worlds.

(The evil of the Empire isn't that it wants conquest, but numerous other crimes. War crimes, genocide, opression of aliens, slavery, forced labor worlds, state terror, etc. All these things are going on now, not 1000 years ago.)

And how do I know they wouldn't approve of Revan's plans? Because I know their leaders. Supreme Chancallor Janirus is not Supreme Chancallor Pultimo. The militant Jedi are a minority in the Jedi council.

And, as others stated, the Genocide might actually not have happened in that scale. But it is very like that the Republic committed warcrimes at the end of the great hyperspace war. And I have no objection against investigating these things and look for ways reconciliation. But I doubt the Empire is interested in this.
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall