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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
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Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
11.27.2012 , 02:37 AM | #3311
Quote: Originally Posted by Palar View Post
"Anyone else hear mice?"
"They've been scratching around in the crawl-space for a year, just ignore it."
"If you say so... hey look, someone wants to know what's in Hall's mug. I better add that to his follow-up!".
I think the problem is the culture just hasn't caught up with the times yet.

Imagine for a moment if you will that SW:TOR launched without any black people in the game. No black npc's, no companion customizations for black companions and no black skin tones for players to use, not a single character in the game being darker than a swarthy Italian. The outcry would have been just as loud as ours was from the players, but gaming magazines and review sites would have picked up on it and blasted EA/BW about it, I wouldn't doubt if even a few mainstream media outlets would have ended up running stories about it.

EA would have been forced to come out and issue statements and apologies and promises and you can bet they would have fixed it in no time flat. Hell it would have been priority number one till it was fixed. It just isn't seen a politically correct or socially acceptable to be prejudiced against people of African descent. This game would never have been allowed to launch like that and you certainly would never have seen someone at BW stupid enough to say "There are no blacks in Star Wars!".

Now in the case of SGRA's I think it is still seen as being somewhat socially acceptable to be homophobic, just so long as you don't talk about it. All EA and BW really need to do at this point is never talk about it again and far as they are concerned the issue is resolved. No gaming media is going to pick up on it, we certainly won't be seeing any pressure external from the industry. All we have is this little thread tucked away in the back of the forums that they can easily ignore. Doesn't make it any less bigoted or discriminatory but so long as they don't talk about it, its seen as "okay".

MoobooMagoo's Avatar


MoobooMagoo
11.27.2012 , 12:20 PM | #3312
Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
I think the problem is the culture just hasn't caught up with the times yet.

Imagine for a moment if you will that SW:TOR launched without any black people in the game. No black npc's, no companion customizations for black companions and no black skin tones for players to use, not a single character in the game being darker than a swarthy Italian. The outcry would have been just as loud as ours was from the players, but gaming magazines and review sites would have picked up on it and blasted EA/BW about it, I wouldn't doubt if even a few mainstream media outlets would have ended up running stories about it.

EA would have been forced to come out and issue statements and apologies and promises and you can bet they would have fixed it in no time flat. Hell it would have been priority number one till it was fixed. It just isn't seen a politically correct or socially acceptable to be prejudiced against people of African descent. This game would never have been allowed to launch like that and you certainly would never have seen someone at BW stupid enough to say "There are no blacks in Star Wars!".

Now in the case of SGRA's I think it is still seen as being somewhat socially acceptable to be homophobic, just so long as you don't talk about it. All EA and BW really need to do at this point is never talk about it again and far as they are concerned the issue is resolved. No gaming media is going to pick up on it, we certainly won't be seeing any pressure external from the industry. All we have is this little thread tucked away in the back of the forums that they can easily ignore. Doesn't make it any less bigoted or discriminatory but so long as they don't talk about it, its seen as "okay".
I don't think Bioware is being homophobic, just stupidly tight lipped.

I do see your point, however.
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Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.27.2012 , 12:55 PM | #3313
Quote: Originally Posted by MoobooMagoo View Post
I don't think Bioware is being homophobic, just stupidly tight lipped.

I do see your point, however.
Well, I guess that would be case solely based on one's point of view: is Bioware treating this content differently only because of the sexualities involved? Has that resulted in this content being delayed/mishandled solely because of the sexualities involved?*


*I add this because if they had written, recorded, coded and implemented SGRA's at the same time as OGRA's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
11.27.2012 , 01:05 PM | #3314
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Well, I guess that would be case solely based on one's point of view: is Bioware treating this content differently only because of the sexualities involved? Has that resulted in this content being delayed/mishandled solely because of the sexualities involved?*


*I add this because if they had written, recorded, coded and implemented SGRA's at the same time as OGRA's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I will agree that "homophobia" probably doesn't apply.

"Heterosexism" would be the better term.
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Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
11.27.2012 , 01:13 PM | #3315
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Well, I guess that would be case solely based on one's point of view: is Bioware treating this content differently only because of the sexualities involved? Has that resulted in this content being delayed/mishandled solely because of the sexualities involved?*
The answer is pretty obvious isn't it?


Quote:
*I add this because if they had written, recorded, coded and implemented SGRA's at the same time as OGRA's, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
If BW had included this content from the start the fact that SGRA's are in the game would never have been an issue. Sure you'd get a handful of people coming to the forum "OMG My dude companion just hit on me." then everyone would have laughed at them and told them to quit clicking the [Flirt] options and that would have been the end of it.

BW created this mess when they made the decision to exclude players seeking SGRA's from the game's offered content. In the end the sole responsibility for this lies at BW's feet.

Quote: Originally Posted by stuffystuffs View Post
I will agree that "homophobia" probably doesn't apply.

"Heterosexism" would be the better term.
I don't particularly see a difference in those two terms. Its just word play to try and avoid being offensive to the offenders. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck.

Lent_San's Avatar


Lent_San
11.27.2012 , 01:14 PM | #3316
Quote: Originally Posted by stuffystuffs View Post
I will agree that "homophobia" probably doesn't apply.
"Heterosexism" would be the better term.
This.

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.27.2012 , 01:25 PM | #3317
Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
I don't particularly see a difference in those two terms. Its just word play to try and avoid being offensive to the offenders. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck.
That's really just a question of semantics. 'Heterosexism' (to me, at least) implies a concentration on heterosexuality as the be all, end all, to the detriment of other sexualities (as we have here, in SWTOR), whereas 'homophobia' (again, to me) means a definite action against someone or thing (action, idea etc.) that is or is perceived to be homosexual.

In this case, Bioware has made a definite action against SGRA's - which, by definition are an idea of homosexuality - but they have also crafted a world which is, in its entirety, heterosexual. I'd say that both terms apply to SWTOR; that Bioware's handling of same-sex content is discriminatory, therefore they are arguably handling this subject and content in a homophobic manner and that the game, as it is currently (and as it could possibly be after the introduction of SGRA's for companions if they do not also introduce outside [Flirt] options) is heterosexist (or heterocentric, being that heterosexuality is the entire focus and that all things are secondary).


Edit: To Stuffystuffs, I agree with you that it does feel like a form of erasure. It's a slightly unwieldy term, though, so I don't like to use it unless I'm sure that erasure is taking place. (Like if there had been lore from before release that said "X is bi/gay" or what-have-you and on release X was straight.)

stuffystuffs's Avatar


stuffystuffs
11.27.2012 , 01:27 PM | #3318
Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
I don't particularly see a difference in those two terms. Its just word play to try and avoid being offensive to the offenders. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is very likely a duck.
"Heterosexism" is a broader term that includes "homophobia" as a form of "heterosexism".

I don't see this quite as an "unreasonable fear of homosexuality" but heterosexual relationships (and the players wanting to see this content) have been treated significantly better than homosexual ones (and those wanting them in game). Well, the latter hasn't been treated at all

So, it seems more like an 'erasure' type of thing going on which I think fits better into that broader category as it seems to stem not from fear but from not giving a crap (as long as there are heterosexual romances and people like them AND WE AREN'T LOSING MONEY over lack of SGRAs, whatevs).

Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
That's really just a question of semantics. 'Heterosexism' (to me, at least) implies a concentration on heterosexuality as the be all, end all, to the detriment of other sexualities (as we have here, in SWTOR), whereas 'homophobia' (again, to me) means a definite action against someone or thing (action, idea etc.) that is or is perceived to be homosexual.
Yeah, I guess you could say it depends on how you look at it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
...heterosexist (or heterocentric, being that heterosexuality is the entire focus and that all things are secondary).
By "secondary" you mean "non-existent" XD
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Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.27.2012 , 01:33 PM | #3319
Quote: Originally Posted by stuffystuffs View Post
"
By "secondary" you mean "non-existent" XD
Yeah... I was going to give a benefit of the doubt of marginalisation* (horrible to think that THAT is positive in comparison to what we have already) should SGRA's be, but world [Flirts] not, but you're right. Bioware seems to be very all or nothing at the moment, and nothing is pretty damn easy when you're as lazy as this lot seems to be.


*i.e. existing, but not being in the centre

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
11.27.2012 , 01:39 PM | #3320
Quote: Originally Posted by Baptes View Post
....Numerous Big Butt Jedi Robes threads, countless music loop threads, hood toggle, chat bubbles ... more action bars thing,
Again, example after example of things that are completely different from what we're asking about. These are all really small, minor issues with a large amount of concern behind them. They are extremely easy to address, because they are one question issues. There is no big implementation concern with how hood toggles are going to be handled. It's just "Are they coming?" That's it. These issues are also all much smaller in development scope than our issue, and are likely easier to get solid answers about because of that.

Further, none of those have anything to do with story.

Scale and content type, those are the two things to keep in mind when making comparisons to our issue. If they aren't even in the same ballpark, the comparison is invalid.

I'd like to see a compilation of all developer/CM communications to the community about HK-51 in the time frame of Launch until the official announcement of his inclusion in Section X. That would be a pretty direct comparison. Unfortunately, I unsubscribed to wait for SGRAs during most of that time, so I don't really know how it was handled. I'd be pretty surprised if they did much beyond tease that he was coming.

Before I said to be patient and reasonable. I'd actually settle for just reasonable. If you want to push as hard as you reasonably can, writing letters about the lack of info on promised content to Massively, MMORPG.com, Darth Hater, Gizmodo, who ever, and asking them to call up EA's press offices and demand information, more power to you.

But, I really wish you guys would stop pushing this discrimination angle. I think it's dangerous and most likely inaccurate. I don't feel like BioWare would be any more forthcoming about any other project of similar scope, and I've seen nothing to indicate I'm wrong about that. In fact, I've very rarely seen ANY game developer be very forthcoming about projects of this scope.

Yes, guys, I understand the importance of our questions. Yes, I have multiple classes I refuse to level or even create until we have some answers. I get it, I really do. I want this as much as anyone. It's just not very fair to turn what is most likely just a disappointing development snafu into a malicious case of discrimination.