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Gunnery Commando PVP Guide


Boufsa's Avatar


Boufsa
05.29.2012 , 05:27 AM | #1
version 1.0.5. Updated August 23th 2012 (NB: this guides contains nothing specific to ranked warzones yet.)
note: PVE Players may also want to take a look at my Gunnery Commando PVE Guide.

Hi everybody. I feel like having seen a lots of questions about gunnery commandos in pvp lately, that are almost always the same (eg "how can I DPS while I keep getting interrupted, plus I am no match against the marauders"), so I felt that a big post would help greatly gathering all the answers given so far.

But since english is not my mother tongue (I am a frog eater as they say ), I was reluctant writing a big post, so I preferred making it a quote festival (In fact, alot of quotes are from me). Feel free to comment on any possibly incorrect info. Hope this work will help a bit.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
All the following info are specific to the gunnery commando class. It assumes you already read all the generic pvp guides from the pvp forum, and especially PvP 101: How To Become A Contender! and Rome-fu's Resolve Guide

INTRODUCTION
I - GENERAL
II - TACTICS
III - SKILLS
IV - 1 VS 1 ENCOUNTER
V - HUTTBALL
VI - VOIDSTAR
VII - NOVARE COAST
VIII - CIVIL WAR
IX - MISCELLANEOUS


INTRODUCTION

Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
There are a lot of fools posting here, but let me set the record straight.

COMMANDO IS NOT A FACEROLL PVP CLASS.

You serve a very valuable role in PVP, be it glass cannon, mobile DPS, or crowd control (yes you heard that right).

The problem that a lot of people run into is that the current FOTMs are almost impossible to kill and since the game greatly encourages creating alts there is a glut of flying monkeys with OP cooldowns running around. This is frustrating but not the hallmark of a broken class.

This isn't to say that there are not problems, but the problems Commandos have are equally impacting of PVP and PVE. Ammo management and an awful capstone ability in CM, bugged talents in Gunnery, and RNG hell in AS.

As a DPS Commando in PVP let me give you some tips on how to be effective.

1> Wear the right gear and know how stats effect your spec. Do you have less than 16k Health? You will die in less than 4GCDs to a pissed off Maurader/Sent. Do you have less than 400 power? Your base damage attacks are really going to feel wimpy. Do you have less than 70% Critical Multiplier? You are very likely not going to anywhere near the top of rankings in damage or kills. Do you have less than 800 Expertise? You are cheap, stupid, and need to go do dailies until you can afford the recruit gear.

2> Line of Sight is your friend, use it. If you stand in the middle of the battlefield, someone is going to notice you and kill you before you can blink. Gunnery Commandos should run to a pillar and find a target before they start shooting. Easiest thing to do is take a moment, find the opposing healer, put a raid marker on it, THEN start blasting.

3> Keep track of who is low health and try to use your burst to pick off high DPS classes BEFORE they have a chance to use their cooldowns. A crit Grav Round combined with a crit Demo Round or HiB can easily do 7k+ damage if you are geared correctly. That's about 35% of even the more well geared dps class, if they hit at the effectively the same time they will die.

4> If a Commando killer comes after you, use your LOS objects to slow them down. Gunnery is not a good kiting spec, but AS does OK. If you are Gunnery, pop your cooldowns, but otherwise you are probably best off continuing to focus on your current target and not worrying about the guy who will eventually kill you. Depending on ammo, a Concussion Charge to buy a GCD might be in order. AS, depending the situation it may be in your best interest to kite, your Plasma Cell procs a snare and Reactive Shield should clear any movement impairing effects. If a Marauder or Assassin has their cooldowns death is likely inevitable, but you can still lead them on a merry chase and hopefully get some help. If you get focused, just accept it, but try to use a Sticky Grenade before you drop as a parting gift.

5> Know your abilities. Did you know Pulse Cannon does not have a max number of targets and does elemental damage (ignores armor and some cooldowns)? Did you know that Hail of Bolts is considered ranged attack and thus can proc Plasma Cell setting multiple people on fire at once? How about Sticky Grenade > Tech Override > Reserve PowerCell > Plasma Grenade > Hail of Bolts being the best six seconds of AOE any class can produce in PVP (12-15k depending on crits/spec)? That Sticky Grenade is better than AP if more than two targets are in the AOE, unless you are trying to focus down a specific player?

6> You are really good crowd control and combat control. Gunnery has an unparalleled ability to manipulate enemy positioning on the battlefield. Properly using LOS then using Concussion Charge and Shockstrike to put enemies in kill zones makes Gunnery Commandos real annoyances for enemy healers and melee DPS. Did that Marauder just pop his CC break to get out of your Cyro Grenade? Tech Override > Concussive Round, then walk away and giggle at him. Is your team about to cap a door or node in Voidstar or Novare use Concussive Charge to prevent them from getting LOS and stopping the cap.

7> Your DPS is really really good as either Gunnery or AS. Stop whining about it, sure there are bugs and RNG problems, but they are not crippling in the ability to do damage. You should be at or near the top of damage and kills in any WZ, if you are not then YOU are doing something wrong.

Now the arguments I am going to hear are all nonsense. Sure some class somewhere does everything above better than us, but no one does all of it as well as Commandos. I am sure I will see the always silly, "Well I am valor 82, have PVPed since 1971, and I say we suck!." Sorry to tell you, if you are sucking it up and feel like a total doormat, YOU are the primary reason, not the class.
You will find another interesting intro that gives a different point of view HERE. To better understand you will need to know the signification of these abreviations:
Quote: Originally Posted by SafeJungleFever View Post
AMP: Advanced Medical Probe
MP: Medical Probe
PG: Plasma Grenade
SG: Sticky Grenade
FA: Full Auto
MV: Mortar Volley
PC: Pulse Cannon
TO: Tech Override
RP: Reserve Powercell
GR: Grav Round
HiB: High Impact Bolt
HoB: Hail of Bolts
SS: Stockstrike
CoF: Curtain of Fire





I - GENERAL

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
As said before (read all the posts), the biggest problem of gunnery commando is that they try to play in pvp like they do in pve. But their opponents are way more clever than the usual mob, and there is a big gap between the casual pve gameplay (grav round, grav round, grav round, grav round, etc) and the pvp gameplay where they need to forget all they learnt in pve (if any) and re-learn a totally new gameplay from scratch, which involves tactics, placements, opponents classes knowledge and the use of far more skills that the two or three skills they use in pve.

Of course a well played marauder can take on three poorly played commando, but as for me I can also say that when I meet a poorly played marauder he is no match for me
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
As for the gunnery commando spec, you need 31 points in it, because the demo round is a good finisher. And you have to learn a totally new gameplay, since only spamming grav rounds won't work there. First of all, the placement is very important. You are a distant, so don't stay in the middle and don't voluntarily go in the middle of the fight. Secondly, you will take interrupts, you will get jumped on, and have trouble facing most of the classes 1vs1 when they are well played. => Know your limits, play in group, sometimes healing a friend is the better way to stay 2 vs 1.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
I'm sorry you are not having fun, but this is a challenging PVP class to play. What I think you, and others, are confusing here is that difference between a difficult PVP class and an easy PVP class. When someone makes a bold statement of "Our survivability does not exist." and I see myself, and others, not only surviving but thriving in WZ then something is up. I'll see if I can FRAP some videos tonight to show what I am talking about.

All I can say is buck up, the class isn't worthless in PVP, in any spec. If it isn't fun, if easy is what you want, then Bioware has made the Sentinal class for you.

II - TACTICS

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
Don't listen to the people who say commando are waste in pvp. Commando's role is to support other classes. Indeed some class have easy time taking other one on one, but they are not doing the right thing either, because everybody should be hitting the same guy, first the heal, then the dps, and ultimately tanks, so If you are trying to kill a guy nobody else is hitting, just ask yourself if you are on the right target. Remember! Nobody forces you to target the one who is targetting you. Just bump him somewhere, and keep on focusing the same target as your friends. Your grav round are very useful since they put shield debuff on them, and it helps your friend killing him faster.

You can also play the sentinel who guards a point. In most case you will be strong enough to stay alive until your friends come help. Voidstar is a holy ground for you, you can easily reach the 300k+ DPS, your bump is very effective against the double neons guys, and your aoes can interrupt a lot of people trying to either setup or defuse the bomb. Your ultimate weapon? The sticky! launch it, go hide, and the guy will be interrupted by some one he can't jump on. Coast of Novare is the BG where I have the hardest time, because it is harder to take advantage of the environment. But again you have a lot of aoes which are instant, and very effective inside of the bunker.

Of course everybody won't find it very interesting to cover your friends and watch their back while they enjoy rushing in the bus. But it is the same for the guys who don't want to heal or to tank. There are the dps that can attack head on, and the dps who are part of the support team. If you don't like it, don't play it, but don't blame the class.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
(...) I am fine, and often finish in the two first pubs. We are not a class that is good in 1 vs 1 duels that's right (although I have no problems killings sorcerers and gunslingers if my CDs are up). But in taking and defending objectives we are rather good and that's a reason good enough to get quickly focused. One commando is enough to guard a turret, because he will somehow manage to survive while waiting for reinforcements to arrive. Now a lot of the survivability depends on where you place yourself. Since we are distance, the better is to not be visible in the center, but rather hide apart from the melee and discretely help our friends.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
You should also learn a bit of tactics, they don't have infinite interruptions and most classes can't interupt you twice in a row. Same thing with your other complaints, if you serve of jumping target, it only means you don't know how to place yourself, and almost every time I get knocked, I knew it was probable to happen. First of all you have to be reactive and bump as soon as you see a hollow of a stealth, and secondly, you have to learn to keep your knock breaker for really usefull occasion. FYI most of their knocks are just mezz, meaning they can't attack you without breaking it, which is very useless unless you panick and use your knock breaker as a lot newbies players do without thinking twice about it
Quote: Originally Posted by Cindarstorm View Post
As a ranged dpser, the keys to killing, and staying alive to kill, are ALWAYS situational awareness, positioning, and deterrence. The first two are pretty straight forward, but the last can use some explaining, so here goes. Deterrence... a marauder jumps at you, interrupting your grav round. You don't hit grav round again and hope he doesn't interrupt it with a 4-second lockout to follow, you punt him (with a 4-second slow). This part, some people get. But them you STILL don't try to grav round him (or anyone else). Instead, since he is slowed, you move. Throw a sticky grenade, use a hammer shot, whatever you have that is usable on the move, but MOVE, and move away, and (heres the good part) find a spot to LOS him in the 12-15 seconds you have before he can jump again, or else get behind your team's lines so that if he does, he is in trouble.

In games like these, people of a certain mentality are drawn to melee dps. They LIKE to jump-in-and-kill. They don't like being kited, especially if you are using LoS. In the above example, when the marauder does reach you again--assuming he hasn't given up already--knock him back with a stockstrike, stun him and keep moving. By this point, most marauders will find a new, more stationary target, and tada! you can go back to blowing the snot out of people with grav round. Best of all is, in the time spent kiting, you are still doing damage, while the marauder is not.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
(about healers ennemies cycling the poles) A healer that moves out of LOS isn't healing his mates either, a healer that isn't healing is about as useful as a dead one. If they skip out, change targets and burn. If you are chasing them, and get munched, that isn't an indication of a problem with the class.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
Yes we are interruptable and knockbackable, so is every other class with inductions and channels. It does sting a bit that we do not have a defensive cooldown that makes us uninterruptable for a short period of time, but it does not break the class, just makes it harder to play. Best thing I can offer for Gunnery is to have Charged Bolts on your bar so that if Grav Round gets interrupted and you get pushed with Full Auto you can move into Charged Bolts while waiting. Don't forget you get a resolve bar as well, and they cannot stop you forever. Assault can kite if someone tries to get in their way, and shouldn't be standing still for more than 3 seconds anyway.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
If you are seeing a 200 total damage out of Hail of Bolts, then were attacking a Guardian/Jugg with their -40% damage cooldown up. Hail of Bolts typically hits each target for between 2-3K, with defensive classes taking less due to shields/deflections. Over the course of the six second AE period, as Gunnery you are looking at a total cost of 3 Ammo for 12-15k worth of damage to multiple people, well worth the investment. It isn't as good for Assault since they don't recharge with crits, but still a manageable 4 Ammo.

You know those Juggs/Marauders that keep bugging you? Pulse Cannon burns through their defenses, same thing with Vanguards/PT who are far more troublesome than anyone but the best Marauders. You are attempting to twist what I said before, just because you want to stay near LOS areas doesn't mean you are always going to be there, or that someone isn't going to come to you.



You have to use your pushbacks smartly, for example knocking people off a bridge, or into the pit, or off the control platforms, etc. They can be used defensively if needed, but that shouldn't be their primary function.

Nothing I or anyone else can do about bad players filling up resolve bars with worthless abilities, or breaking CC. Just remember it goes both ways, you have a resolve bar and the enemies have bad players as well.

III - SKILLS

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
You also have to learn to use others skills than your 5 preferred. When you are interrupted, you lose the same time as your opponent, since he used one GCD to interrupt you => just switch to another skill. When you are low life against another low life mezz him, and heal yourself, or if he purges himself, cryo him and finish him. When you are about do die, use your last GCD to throw a sticky. Most of theses are never purged and if the guy tries to tag, the sticky will blow up several seconds after your death and interrupt him and all of the other taggers.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
I already said it, but I will say it twice: don't play pvp like pve and don't rely too much on the grav round. My grav round is interrupted? So bad, I still have 4 or 5 other skill I can use while waiting to be able to reuse it. Of course commando that get their grav round interrupted and stay a few second doing nothing like stupid guinea pig are easy targets, but I learnt how to adapt long ago, and since most of the gunslinger don't even know about the smoke grenade they are the easy target. The only gunslinger I know that I can't win against plays on my side so I generally don't have to bother, and I won't be stupid enough to try to take him one on one.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
(About complains about getting interrupted on the grav round having to wait 4 sec before being able to atack again) You must be joking. What aboud demo round? What about full auto? What about High Impact Bolt? FYI full auto is from far the best skill when comparing time and ammo to the dps inflicted. And High Impact Bolt is not so bad, it does nearly as much damage as a grav-round while costing only 1 ammo. With those three skills you have enough to complete your cycle if the ennemy is distant. And if he is near you there is much more to do, don't forget you also have cac abilities: Concussion Charge, Pulse Cannon, Stockstrike, they give you plenty of possibilities depending on the situation. You also have your grenades (sticky, cryo and plasma) that each have their own forces and weaknesses. Did you ever see that by combining Reserve Powercell and Tech Override you can insta-cast every skill you want without getting interrupted or spending amo? Pretty useful for throwing a plasma grenade (for example). In situations where all my powers are on cooldown but I still have ammo, I even resort to using explosives rounds that cost a lot amo for little effectiveness, but are still better than dying doing nothing. Hammer Shot is also sometimes useful when you have already used all your instants and need to keep moving.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
You are no worse off than any other ranged dps class. Think of it like this what happens if you throw a sticky, then start inducting a Grav Round? They both go off at the same time, imagine that. Using your abilities in the right order to generate burst and understanding things like travel time and others is key to making this work. Now let's say you just engaged an enemy, you start with Sticky > Grav Round > Demo Round. Assuming that you crit at least one of the three, that should be about 7-8K worth of damage instantly, even without stacking Grav Vortex. If you wait half a second you for the Grav Round to hit you can use HiB so that the total cost in Ammo during this time is a very effecient 2. Assault isn't as good, but it adds up quick over a few seconds, and the elemental damage from the burns are not resisted well.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
Demo and Grav Round do work best with time to setup, just accept that you will do less damage in PVP than you will in PVE. The point here is that setting up burst for a 10-15% gain, isn't worth your time, that two stacks of Grav Round is all you need to make both Demo Round and HiB effective. When I first tried Gunnery back while leveling I quickly found out that using HiB and Demo Round on cooldown or as part of a planned burst did far more damage than waiting for buff/debuff numbers to reach optimal. The overall burst matters more than the total amount of the burst. As discussed previously, setting up with Sticky or AP isn't hard since our best abilities have inductions.
IV - 1 VS 1 ENCOUNTER

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
Flee 1 vs 1 encounters, and even if some marauder comes for you, keep an eye around: you probably won't be able to kill him, but it will take him some time to take you down. Try to bump him downside, and keep using your aoes on the packs, your friends will thank you later.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
(About Sorc encounters) I don't mind being slowed, because I don't have to move (and it's rather bad idea unless you are near an obstacle). I don't mind their other powers because, my own powers do at least as much dps as theirs. I also benefits from the fact that bad players don't know how to play and good players take you lightly because they usually win against your class. If I use my doping/relic/shield while he himself tries to save his own, he will be the loser.
Quote: Originally Posted by Cindarstorm View Post
Yes, the class is bad at one versus one. Yes, in mmo's all ranged dps are supposed to be bad at one versus one. And, at least in sub-50, it's not even thaaat bad. If I don't pretend to be a turret (I never do) then I can actually beat (poorly played) marauders and such one on one.

In the end (if you can call it and end since I'm not even 50 yet), I wonder how much of the complaining comes from people who have ever played an rdps in another game. The commando doesn't feel any worse to me than my old sorc in warhammer, or my eldritch in Daoc, etc.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
The important point is "don't take anybody 1vs1 unless you don't have the choice" (eg you are alone defending one point), and "when fighting 1vs1, go all out" (use relics, shields, adrenaline, cryo, all what you have, because If you die your team might lose the match). After this, the technique depends on the class that has come to you. Against a marauder it is often better to call for help and run around the poles to survive enough time for your friends to come rescue you. But if you try to take him out, keep in mind that around 2kpv left he will use is super defensive skills, so when he is about to reach it, mezz him (just to make him break the cc), then cryo him and burst him. If you finish him before expiration of the cryo you win, otherwise you are done. That's not easy, but you can do it, good luck!
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
That would be a Marauder, Assassin, or DPS Operative. If one of these jump you, you are very likely going to die and it is probably as it should be. Anyone else gets in your face you can LOS them or ignore them and keep firing. You WILL die in PVP, you will sometimes die a lot, so does everyone else.

Being melodramatic about squishy are you, especially since you are not as squishy as you claim and have a bunch of defensive abilities, just makes you look silly. This isn't a faceroll class, and sometimes it will feel like a doormat if someone has figured you out or you pissed them off, deal with it. It isn't better for anyone else.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
(To someone who interpreted the above recommendations as a "1vs1? => run or die") I think you misinterpreted this part. This is not "run or die", but "avoid if you have the choice". Of course once the encounter has begun, running is not the best option unless you can take advantage from a neaby place (eg bumping the ennemy downside in a hole or hiding from a distant and healing while he tries to catch up).

But it really depends on the situation. If you are 2 vs 2, hit the same as your friend and not the one hitting you. If you are 1 vs 1 and totally alone afar from the other guys, but there is no nearby strategical point you have to protect, just die and save your relics and shields for a better investment.

If you are 1 vs 1 and totally alone afar from the other guys and there is a nearby objective you MUST ABSOLUTELY protect go all out and use all your abillities to take out the guy and burst him down. One tip: you only have one cc breaker, and don't want to waste it, so always ask yourself when you are cced "is it the real thing or is he just trying to make me use my cc breaker?" and act accordingly. When being cced is also the good time to ask for help if you didn't already do it when the guy arrived (assuming you don't have a vocal to rely on).
Quote: Originally Posted by ArchangelLBC View Post
Consulars and Smugglers have a 12s ranged interrupt (10m). Vanguards and Knights have an 8s interrupt which sentinels can spec into 6s if they go watchman. The fact that that's 3/7 of the other classes is balanced out by how many MORE Vanguards/PTs and Sents/Maras there are in warzones. I can't speak for smugglers or sages but I know that on my shadow I can still keep you shutdown for long enough after the first interrupt that by the time I'm out of abilities to shut you down and you can finally start your setup I'll be so far ahead it won't matter. On my sentinel the burst is so good that I almost don't care what else you do once I shut down the first grav round. Trading a non-COF Full Auto for a Precision Slash > Master Strike > Autocrit Blade storm is a trade I'm willing to make all day, without a Grav Vortex on you they can't use HiB (unless you blow your stun on them) and DR without those Vortices is pretty lackluster. Similarly vanguards have a lot of abilities to keep you shutdown until they're so far ahead that it doesn't matter. But that's 1v1 and we both know that's not where commando shines. The problem is that commando shines when they can be left alone and that's just one area where we really have no control over our own destiny. We can try to hang back, and of course we want to put ourselves near good real estate if it's available, but once they realize we're there we are too easily taken out of the fight, as opposed to Snipers who can still make you work for it even when you DO know they're there. Honestly our best bet is to just never engage someone unless they're already engaging someone else.

You're absolutely right though that the key to success in pvp is to understand the mechanics of other classes. That was one of the things that led me to level Sent in the first place, since nothing helps you understand a class like playing it, but that's true of success in pvp in general, not just for commando.

On that note, some tips against Sents, and combat sents in particular though.

1) If they leap to you while you're on a ledge, like in huttball. knock them back and try to open the distance to greater than 10m. Their leap is on a 15s cooldown, their ranged root (if combat spec) has a 10m range. On flat ground I don't recommend this because of the next tip.

2) On any spec but especially combat spec, Master Strike is deadly, and for combat spec in particular Precision Slash > Master Strike > Blade Storm is the super deadly Burst of theirs. Knock them back and indeed consider saving the knockback for this, and then get that 10.01m+ of space so they can't even get their blade storm in. They still have the possibility for high burst with zen > Blade Rush spam, but I can tell you nothing will tick them off more than having their 4.5s of 100% armor penetration wasted by being knock backed and slowed.

3) we should all know this but figure out how much burst you can get out of HiB > DR and stun then when their HP is less than that and freaking kill them before they have a change to GBTF/UR. Also have stealth scan somewhere you can use it quickly and try to guess when they're gonna use Force Camo and that will be a nice denialof that run away ability for them.


V - HUTTBALL

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
Last but not least, commandos are a very useful tool in huttball, since we can provide good support for defending our camp. Don't go skirmishing in the center or in some random place in the map like a lot do, you have way better to do. First objective, clean the platforms of your camp, no red guy must stay on it. But don't try to kill everyone because it takes way to long, just bump them downside and have them take the long walk to come back. Beware the jumpers. Avoid offering them a free ticket to advance into your camp, and if you ever get jumped, patientely wait four seconds before bumping them back. Often scan your spawing area, there are often fufus waiting there. And finally if all is cleared and your team mates have the ball you can begin to advance and support them. Even if you are gunnery, switch to the healer cell, and continuously heal your friends who has the ball. Healing is very complicated in huttball for every other classes since of the extreme mobility of most of the classes, but you can keep healing while moving and that's a real plus. Of course the enemy will focus you as an obvious healer, but first the dps you get is not for your friend, and you are in heavy armor so it's another way to help him making it to the goal, secondly, don't forget that your primarily objective is defending your camp, and dying is the quicker way to get back there.
Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
Especially in huttball, there is almost none better than us at defending our camp. It's our role. I have seen a lot of players skirmishing in the center or in some random points of the map, but they were clearly aside from the good strategy, which is:
- first of all, don't get jumped on. It means don't go attack a marauder having the ball head on, or you will give him a free shortcut to your goal. If you ever get jumped, don't instantly bump, he is immune, but rather wait 4 seconds and then bump.
- Don't use your cryo and stun when he is not in the fire, it will fill is resolution for no benefits.
- Your two bumps are your best friends. First try to bump all the foes, and only if it didn't work resort on taking them out.
- Even when your team is attacking, keep your platforms clean. Use your anti-fufu in the zone where they like waiting for the ball, cryo the gunslinger and then bump them, and avoid having sorcerers in position for grapping.

Of course this job is not as interesting as going for the goal, and you won't get as much medals as other classes. But if you play well and want your team to win you will greatly contribute to it while your comrades will hardly noticed your were there and have guarded their back.

VI - VOIDSTAR

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
Someone was talking about voidstar. There are some helpfull tips to use once the first door crossed: Before the bridges are expanded, go in the center inbetween (Don't go too close to the edge, since you don't want to serve as jumping target for maras wanting to come back). While in that position, you can bump the guys, that's an easy way to kill them.

Once you have crossed the bridges, if some mara comes at you, first check the doors. If you have enough teammates guarding, go hide behind the pole next to the bridge and stick to it. If the guy don't come, heal yourself. If he comes, patientely wait for him to be between you and the void and bump him. Even players that know the trick (and will also stick to the pole while attacking from the side) can be tricked again if you move a little around the pole. But beware! They can also bump you if you don't stick to the pole.

I think most of you already noticed, that if someone crosses the bridge in front of you, you can cryo him and then bump him, that a well known move. But restrain yourself from purposely going to the bridge in order to bump crossers unless you yourself need to cross it. You would be right in the melee -which is not your place- and that kind of move is too easy to anticipate, so in most cases you would be the one tricked.

Another evident tip, the skill 'hail of bolts' is your best friend when interrupting mutliple targets tagging a door. It also works on civil war and novare coast.

Last but not least, when you are about to cross an empty bridge, remember that there are sometimes fufus waiting to bump you in the middle. Scanning the area before crossing can sometimes save your life .
VII - NOVARE COAST

VIII - CIVIL WAR

IX - MISCELLANEOUS

Quote: Originally Posted by Boufsa View Post
(about comparison to AS) Don't trust everything you read on the forums. Of course you can play a gunnery commando in pvp and greatly help your team. But your dps meter will always stay behind assault specialists, because dot specialities are much more easier to inflict alot dps. But you will lose alot burst power, and if there are some big healers foes, you will end up inflicting 500k+ damages on target that never died. Sure you will make alot of medals, but all in all, it serves nothing.
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
(about comparison to Assault Vanguard) Don't be ridiculous, no Assault Vanguard is ten times better than an Assault Commando. They have slightly better synergy between their base skills and spec tree. This may translate into higher damage output, which when put head to head on a combat dummy translates to about 5% better DPS.

Their skill set is better designed to keep enemies close, ours is designed to push them away. This isn't to say that the Assault tree for Commandos doesn't need a tweak, it does, as it is indeed better for Vanguards right now. However it doesn't require a rework or drastic change because they are very close to each other already in terms of overall power.

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Boozsha
05.29.2012 , 12:15 PM | #2
Thanks for putting this together. I had a lot of the individual post from you and Azhrione bookmarked. I can do away with those now and save this one.

This needs to be a sticky.

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Lunez
05.30.2012 , 01:00 AM | #3
As someone who has never played a Commando, I can say that this was an enjoyable read, full of interesting bits of information. Thanks for posting, and I look forward to your future updates.

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HTPRO
05.30.2012 , 07:05 AM | #4
Good guide, however there is one ugly mistake you should fix immediately. A commando can NEVER dispel / remove sorc dots [talking affliction / creeping terror / crushing darkness]. Not even combat medic specced. Please do remove this bit of information or your guide can't be taken seriously.

Pro of a commando is the ability to heal if needed and heavy armour [the only ranged dps with heavy armour. - nope a vanguard should not be classified as a ranged dps]. The cons... more on that below.


1] [gunnery] Commandos do not lack damage and no one can argue about that. What they do lack though, is utility. No slows, no roots, no mobility [in the form of a jump or speed increase] and no interrupt [the only class in the game]

2] Very prone to interrupt. Yes an interrupt locks out your grav round for 4-6 seconds. Yes you can use other skills. Too bad Demo Round, High Impact Bolt, Full Auto and Sticky Grenade all have 15s cooldown. Have you used them shortly before enemy interrupted you? Too bad dude, all you can do is hammer shooting enemies for 4 - 6 seconds.

3] No worthwhile internal / elemental damage. Have fun turning around trying to hit that melee attacking you with at least two ticks of pulse cannon. Yes instacast 0 ammo cost plasma grenade is fun - you can have fun once every two minutes though ;D.

4] This is related to #1. Commando has no getaway button from melee classes and can't possibly compete with melees 1v1 [talking pyro PT, darkness assassin and any spec of marauder]. Those melee all have slows with low / no cooldown while commando has none. This means one thing - commando has no way of outdpsing, outrunning or outlasting those classes which ultimately means commando loses every single time.

5] Oh the famous "this game is not 1v1". If you have a class who can't 1v1 then that means you have a class who can't defend points solo. Which means you either have to assign another player to babysit commando, or never have a commando defend a point. Also a commando can never go solo cap since it can't win a 1v1. Or you have a coomando defending catwalk in huttball. All it takes is one melee to get to the commando and the commando does nothing. Having such a deadweight is crippling for the team.


To put it simply, why play a DPS class which is outperformed by other DPS classes?

Anyway good guide with the exception of that sorc dispel thing.

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azhrione
05.30.2012 , 07:25 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by HTPRO View Post
1] [gunnery] Commandos do not lack damage and no one can argue about that. What they do lack though, is utility. No slows, no roots, no mobility [in the form of a jump or speed increase] and no interrupt [the only class in the game]
We have plenty of utility, two knockbacks, a ranged 4 second stun, an inducted mez which can be made instant, Armor Debuff, and two snares (tied to Concussion Charge and Full Auto). One of the things Gunnery really needs is a root, preferably an AE short duration (2 seconds) tied to a DPS ability. Sticky Grenade is a good candidate.

Quote:
2] Very prone to interrupt. Yes an interrupt locks out your grav round for 4-6 seconds. Yes you can use other skills. Too bad Demo Round, High Impact Bolt, Full Auto and Sticky Grenade all have 15s cooldown. Have you used them shortly before enemy interrupted you? Too bad dude, all you can do is hammer shooting enemies for 4 - 6 seconds.
Note that interrupts locks you out of an ability for five seconds, but takes eight seconds to come off of cooldown. One player cannot interrupt lock you, and if two are focus interrupting you in a WZ you should be cheering for eating up so many resources from the enemy. I highly recommend Gunnery Commandos keep Charged Bolts on their bar, you may occasionally get the chance to use it.

Also I recommend learning the art of the fake cast. Start the Grav Round and jump half a second later to draw the interrupt. Once blow, blast away with freedom.

Quote:
3] No worthwhile internal / elemental damage. Have fun turning around trying to hit that melee attacking you with at least two ticks of pulse cannon. Yes instacast 0 ammo cost plasma grenade is fun - you can have fun once every two minutes though ;D.
Most of our commonly used abilities are autohit due to being Tech, the exceptions being Full Auto, Hammer Shot, and Hail of Bolts. Pulse Cannon is not that bad, and it's a funny way to make Marauders pop cooldowns, when they suddenly realize that you are going to kill them.

Quote:
4] This is related to #1. Commando has no getaway button from melee classes and can't possibly compete with melees 1v1 [talking pyro PT, darkness assassin and any spec of marauder]. Those melee all have slows with low / no cooldown while commando has none. This means one thing - commando has no way of outdpsing, outrunning or outlasting those classes which ultimately means commando loses every single time.

5] Oh the famous "this game is not 1v1". If you have a class who can't 1v1 then that means you have a class who can't defend points solo. Which means you either have to assign another player to babysit commando, or never have a commando defend a point. Also a commando can never go solo cap since it can't win a 1v1. Or you have a coomando defending catwalk in huttball. All it takes is one melee to get to the commando and the commando does nothing. Having such a deadweight is crippling for the team.
If 1v1 PVP is really that big of a concern then you should not spec Gunnery, you should be Assault Spec. AS has snares, an escape, shortened defensive cooldown timers, and the ability to kite. It can go 1v1 against any class in the game with a good chance of success.

Quote:
To put it simply, why play a DPS class which is outperformed by other DPS classes?
Because it isn't outperformed to any great extent in terms of damage output, which is equal or superior to the other classes. Also you get to use BFGs.

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Boufsa
05.30.2012 , 07:49 AM | #6
Thank you all for the comments. Also hope this will get a sticky (but don't know how to get theses). But I don't think I will add every further quotes unless they are very interesting or take place in the void parts, as the actual content is big enough for now.

Quote: Originally Posted by HTPRO View Post
Good guide, however there is one ugly mistake you should fix immediately. A commando can NEVER dispel / remove sorc dots [talking affliction / creeping terror / crushing darkness]. Not even combat medic specced. Please do remove this bit of information or your guide can't be taken seriously.
Updated. Sorry for the mistake.

Quote: Originally Posted by HTPRO View Post
Very prone to interrupt. Yes an interrupt locks out your grav round for 4-6 seconds. Yes you can use other skills. Too bad Demo Round, High Impact Bolt, Full Auto and Sticky Grenade all have 15s cooldown. Have you used them shortly before enemy interrupted you? Too bad dude, all you can do is hammer shooting enemies for 4 - 6 seconds.
That's inexact, because it is very rare to have all in cooldown, and if it happens, in most case it will be against melee class, meaning you can use others abilities like stockstrike. And as I said somewhere, if the case happens against a distant opponent, you still have the explosive round you used from level 1 to 10, which use alot ammo for a few dammage, but still more than the hammer shot and is instant so not interruptable with no cooldown.

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SwingApproves
05.30.2012 , 08:16 AM | #7
I think a lot of people have difficulties because Commando isn't easy mode so they don't bother sticking with it for better gear.

I'm full BM and will get WH gear by end of the week and can already see my performance becoming a lot lot better the more I practise, the more I read here and the better gear I become.

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Cloakofsin
05.30.2012 , 10:58 AM | #8
This guide is amazing, this must of taken you awhile to find all these posts. As a commando this helped a lot me greatly and I can't wait to try out some of the tips and tricks in pvp now, thank you.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life, is when men are afraid of the Light.
-Plato:

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HTPRO
05.31.2012 , 01:19 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by azhrione View Post
We have plenty of utility, two knockbacks, a ranged 4 second stun, an inducted mez which can be made instant, Armor Debuff, and two snares (tied to Concussion Charge and Full Auto). One of the things Gunnery really needs is a root, preferably an AE short duration (2 seconds) tied to a DPS ability. Sticky Grenade is a good candidate.

Gunslinger has two knockbacks [one roots too], melee 4s stun, ranged AoE blind, the same armor debuff commando has [except it reduces healing too and applies 20% armor reduction after one cast, not three], ranged root, cover mechanics [increased ranged defense , ballistic dampeners, immune to interrupts] and a ranged interrupt. They do more damage too! Can't offheal.

Lightning sorc has a knockback with root, bubble with blind, a slow, force speed, interrupt, ranged 4s stun, mez [2s cast] and a friendly pull.
Madness sorc has a knockback, a slow, force speed, interrupt, instacast mez, 4s ranged stun, ranged root and a pull.
Both specs can offheal if needed

Compare commando to these three classes / specs and you will see that it has in fact next to utility

Note that interrupts locks you out of an ability for five seconds, but takes eight seconds to come off of cooldown. One player cannot interrupt lock you, and if two are focus interrupting you in a WZ you should be cheering for eating up so many resources from the enemy. I highly recommend Gunnery Commandos keep Charged Bolts on their bar, you may occasionally get the chance to use it.

Also I recommend learning the art of the fake cast. Start the Grav Round and jump half a second later to draw the interrupt. Once blow, blast away with freedom.

This is true however even uninterrupted grav rounds [and other spells] will not outdps melee and you can't run away from them... bad situation if you ask me. Also fakecast can go either way. Enemy might not have interrupt up, you "interrupt" yourself by jumping and when you do "real" cast you get interrupted anyway since enemy cooldown is up. Yes theorycraft, still entirely possible.



Most of our commonly used abilities are autohit due to being Tech, the exceptions being Full Auto, Hammer Shot, and Hail of Bolts. Pulse Cannon is not that bad, and it's a funny way to make Marauders pop cooldowns, when they suddenly realize that you are going to kill them.

Add High Impact Bolt to that list. What I was trying to say is that internal / elemental attacks usually do 10% less damage (sorc buff). Kinetic / energy do anywhere from 18% - 56% less damage (light armor - heavy armor in tank spec).This, coupled with the fact that the abilities listed above have 90% base accuracy and can be dodged / deflected makes gunnery commando bad tank killer (assault spec notices less difference in damage when attacking tanks)


If 1v1 PVP is really that big of a concern then you should not spec Gunnery, you should be Assault Spec. AS has snares, an escape, shortened defensive cooldown timers, and the ability to kite. It can go 1v1 against any class in the game with a good chance of success.

Agreed, however we are talking gunnery commando here so telling people to go assault is kinda off ;D

Because it isn't outperformed to any great extent in terms of damage output, which is equal or superior to the other classes. Also you get to use BFGs.
Cannons are actually the only reason I play commando. Too bad they DO get outperformed badly.

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azhrione
05.31.2012 , 08:34 AM | #10
Cannot really quote you, but it seems from your list that our utility is comparable to other classes sans an interrupt. Pointing out class features like Cover doesn't really point out utility since there is no utility or usefulness for the rest of the team. As for something we get that neither GS or Sages get, how about purging Tech Effects. Do Commandos in general lack for utility compared to a handful of classes/specs, sure but a properly played Gunnery Commando on a good team will out damage a GS or Lightening Sorc in PVP.

I do not know what to tell you about Melee jumping you, other than play Assault if 1v1 is important. Otherwise your teammates need to be helping keep the big nasties off of you. Guardians/Juggs are not a big deal, if they do a Master Strike just move or push. You can purge the fire dots from Vigilance Guardians, and Focus Guardians do not do the same kind of damage they used to do. Fake cast then ignore them.

Marauders, Assassins, and DPS Operatives will kill you in five or six GCDs. Marauders you can treat something like Juggs and try to get away. Assassins and Ops will just stun lock you and kill you, not much you can do about it, but neither can anyone else really. Only real hope you have is to notify your healer you're getting focused by strong melee, and that they are quick. Personally when I was PVPing as Gunnery I ran with a Vanguard or Sage, which made my life much easier. Vanguard would Harpoon or Taunt any melee that got in my face (Reactive Shield + Taunt = 55% damage reduction on top of armor). Sage would keep me shielded and rescue me if melee decided to focus me. Gunnery will be dependent upon their teammates to help keep them alive, not unlike the way healers work now. The payoff is there though if we can be kept up and allowed keep blasting.

In regards to damage reduction and our abilities. I did indeed forget HiB, my mistake. Armor Piercing Shell combined with stacked armor reduction from Grav Round makes up for the high armor or resistance on targets. 55% armor reduction is pretty significant. What makes us bad tank killers is the nature of tanks, taunt plus having 23-25k hps is what makes us bad tank killers.

If you have a problem base accuracy then I question your gear selection. As Gunnery I regularly ran around with 103-108% accuracy on ranged attacks just from buying normal BM/WH gear, it's packed with accuracy which is a little meh with Gunnery and far more useful for Assault.

As for recommending Assault for someone who is freaking out over Gunnery's inability to handle 1v1 against other melee classes. This is not a 1v1 game, while a 1v1 situation may occasionally arise it should be avoided, your team needs to understand how you work and keep you up and blasting.

I'm not going to argue that Gunnery doesn't need some help, it does. The primary things that need to be done are fixing bugs and giving them a root.

Made a whole post as to what I think needs to be done, you can find it here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=453954