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A response to Combat Designers at the Guild Summit: On Fixing Tank gear in PvP.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
A response to Combat Designers at the Guild Summit: On Fixing Tank gear in PvP.

EthanThristam's Avatar


EthanThristam
03.29.2012 , 09:05 PM | #1
At the guild summit. The combat designers stated unequivocally that they believe that tanks on rated teams will not continue to wear DPS gear and will switch to tanking gear, since it makes them vulnerable to the highest damage classes in this game. This is quite simply, not true.

As a tank shadow since day 1, I will say that my least feared class are these so called high damage classes reliant mostly on a great deal of 'white' damage ex. Sharpshooter/Saboteur Gunslinger, Marksman/Engineering Sniper, and Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder.

Simply put, I have enough base defense against their class that the drop in shield/defense/absorb is worth it in PvP. And I'm certain that most other tank classes will agree with me. The primary stat in PvP is our damage resistance, and since armor is the same across the board in our DPS gear set with our tank gear set, many of us do not wear our tank gear, and will continue to do so in rated. The only thing we lose is around 3k HP, give or take, for a major increase in damage potential.

So what do we do to fix it?

We take away the benefit to wearing DPS gear in our respective tank stances, while buffing the benefit of shield/defense/absorb. But how?

In combat trance/dark charge, soresu form, and Ion cell/Gas cylinder, we modify the coefficient to +power to make its benefit minimal.

Now I know all of you people out there are crying foul, so hear me out for a moment. In order to buff shield/defense/absorb, we make it so it has benefit against yellow damage classes but at half value.

For example, a tank shadow with 30% defense, 40% shield percent, and 40% shield absorb would have a 15% chance to deflect yellow damage attacks, a 20% chance to shield against yellow damage attacks, and when an attack is shielded, 20% damage absorption. This would apply to white damage classes too, allowing a passive buff to 'white' damage classes by halving our current defense against their most effective abilities. If you feel this would make defense too powerful in PvP, then modify it so its slightly less than a half, down to perhaps even one third of its PvE percentage, so that shield and absorb will remain useful stats.

In return, I feel that Deception/Infiltration/Balance/Madness shadows/assassins should gain enough benefit to put their armor on par with DPS heavy armor classes, or if not that, then some of the gap closers, and defensive cooldowns 'upgrades' that their tanking counterparts get. Similar benefits need to be given to Scoundrels/Operatives as well, in their DPS specs.

Just please, fix this. I want to feel like an actual tank. My DPS in tanking gear was already at the point where I felt like it was more than adequate for this game. The current situation is absurd, and people who want to be DPS in PvP ought to be speccing DPS.

Darthshnooky's Avatar


Darthshnooky
03.29.2012 , 09:42 PM | #2
This is a great idea.

PvP "tanking" in this game just feels like a strange, passive form of proactive healing. You guard a target to reduce it's damage and taunt enemies to reduce their damage to other targets. The damage you "defend" against is effectively healed ahead of time. But when an enemy attacks you, unless you use defensive cooldowns, you really aren't much better off than many DPS classes. PvP tanks don't really absorb a great deal of incoming damage, so as a tank they aren't a real threat.

I'd be happy to lose damage output as an Immortal Jugg to gain greater survivability. Yes there would be issues with tanks guarding nodes or doors in certain flashpoints... but that's what testing and balance would be for. There are some great tools for tanks to use in pvp, we just need a little push to actually allow us to really play as tanks -- and not just as pests.

LoKiei's Avatar


LoKiei
03.29.2012 , 11:46 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by EthanThristam View Post
At the guild summit. The combat designers stated unequivocally that they believe that tanks on rated teams will not continue to wear DPS gear and will switch to tanking gear, since it makes them vulnerable to the highest damage classes in this game. This is quite simply, not true.

As a tank shadow since day 1, I will say that my least feared class are these so called high damage classes reliant mostly on a great deal of 'white' damage ex. Sharpshooter/Saboteur Gunslinger, Marksman/Engineering Sniper, and Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder.

Simply put, I have enough base defense against their class that the drop in shield/defense/absorb is worth it in PvP. And I'm certain that most other tank classes will agree with me. The primary stat in PvP is our damage resistance, and since armor is the same across the board in our DPS gear set with our tank gear set, many of us do not wear our tank gear, and will continue to do so in rated. The only thing we lose is around 3k HP, give or take, for a major increase in damage potential.

So what do we do to fix it?

We take away the benefit to wearing DPS gear in our respective tank stances, while buffing the benefit of shield/defense/absorb. But how?

In combat trance/dark charge, soresu form, and Ion cell/Gas cylinder, we modify the coefficient to +power to make its benefit minimal.

Now I know all of you people out there are crying foul, so hear me out for a moment. In order to buff shield/defense/absorb, we make it so it has benefit against yellow damage classes but at half value.

For example, a tank shadow with 30% defense, 40% shield percent, and 40% shield absorb would have a 15% chance to deflect yellow damage attacks, a 20% chance to shield against yellow damage attacks, and when an attack is shielded, 20% damage absorption. This would apply to white damage classes too, allowing a passive buff to 'white' damage classes by halving our current defense against their most effective abilities. If you feel this would make defense too powerful in PvP, then modify it so its slightly less than a half, down to perhaps even one third of its PvE percentage, so that shield and absorb will remain useful stats.

In return, I feel that Deception/Infiltration/Balance/Madness shadows/assassins should gain enough benefit to put their armor on par with DPS heavy armor classes, or if not that, then some of the gap closers, and defensive cooldowns 'upgrades' that their tanking counterparts get. Similar benefits need to be given to Scoundrels/Operatives as well, in their DPS specs.

Just please, fix this. I want to feel like an actual tank. My DPS in tanking gear was already at the point where I felt like it was more than adequate for this game. The current situation is absurd, and people who want to be DPS in PvP ought to be speccing DPS.
I agree.

It's quite disturbing the the combat designers actually believed this would be the case. That's pretty far out of touch....

EthanThristam's Avatar


EthanThristam
03.30.2012 , 10:08 AM | #4
I won't claim to know the motivations of the developers here. All I know is that in order for PvP and PvE to remain healthy, then they need to be treated as two seperate animals, with two seperate rulesets.

This will alleviate player concerns by making nerfs to PvE not affect PvP, and vice versa. It makes class balance so much easier since you're not making considerations for both.

Damage values, healing values, and effects of abilities, and talents should be entirely seperate on players in PvP combat(Or if that's too hard, in PvP open world zones/warzones), and on PvE creatures.

It will also allow them to create a wider variety of gear. For example, you could have a lightsaber with an amazing PvE effect, but no effect on players, or a lesser/different effect on players. Or passive armor bonuses which function only in each setting.

Dual talent functionalities. Dual ability functionalities. Different rulesets for stats like the above for tanks in PvP. Yes it will be a lot of work to implement, but make it happen and you'll promote a healthy environment for class balance in the years to come.

Humankeg's Avatar


Humankeg
03.31.2012 , 01:08 AM | #5
Assassins have a gap closer already (which is op'd in huttball). Don't need another one.

jbuschell's Avatar


jbuschell
03.31.2012 , 06:34 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Humankeg View Post
Assassins have a gap closer already (which is op'd in huttball). Don't need another one.
I agree Im a balance shadow and what we need isn't another gap closer but medium armor would be nice. As a balance shadow I endorse the op's message, when I do really well in a wz which i generally do not trying to sound cocky I've just been pvping in mmo's for a very long time, I get tells all the time gg shadowtank noob, or your class is so easy shadowtank. I'm balance and I always am! This shows that not only are people dumb and really bad and dont know all class and spec mechanics at 50 and was probabaly the reason why I roflstomped them, but I hate always being called a noob shadow tank when in reallity I'm a good balance shadow. So nerf them dps tanking so then people will just shut up already, especially some of these idiots on these forums calling for shadow and sin tank nerfs in like 6 different threads
E-Thuggin since 1987

Herew's Avatar


Herew
03.31.2012 , 09:10 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by EthanThristam View Post
At the guild summit. The combat designers stated unequivocally that they believe that tanks on rated teams will not continue to wear DPS gear and will switch to tanking gear, since it makes them vulnerable to the highest damage classes in this game.
Did they seriously say this with a straight face?
Member of squadron 950A
Heru - Jedi Guardian - Bloodworthy

hadoken's Avatar


hadoken
03.31.2012 , 09:49 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by EthanThristam View Post
As a tank shadow since day 1, I will say that my least feared class are these so called high damage classes reliant mostly on a great deal of 'white' damage ex. Sharpshooter/Saboteur Gunslinger, Marksman/Engineering Sniper, and Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder.
Other tank classes DO have issues with these classes, though. This is a problem with shadows/assassins, however. You're not exactly 'balanced' right now in pvp. I mean seriously, name one class or archetype you DO have issues with as a tank shadow/assassin in dps gear.

jbuschell's Avatar


jbuschell
03.31.2012 , 10:01 AM | #9
Nerf Dmg but increase mitigation, and if BW completely destroys shadow tanking infil and balance needs buffs
E-Thuggin since 1987

Herew's Avatar


Herew
03.31.2012 , 11:12 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by hadoken View Post
Other tank classes DO have issues with these classes, though. This is a problem with shadows/assassins, however. You're not exactly 'balanced' right now in pvp. I mean seriously, name one class or archetype you DO have issues with as a tank shadow/assassin in dps gear.
I guess you are referring to PT's then? I can't speak for them since mine is only level 43 and I don't really pvp with it, but all of the listed specs are probably the least dangerous DPS classes for the JK as well.
Member of squadron 950A
Heru - Jedi Guardian - Bloodworthy