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George Zoeller: PVP vs PVE Balance

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
George Zoeller: PVP vs PVE Balance

subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
03.24.2012 , 02:40 AM | #1
In your interview you said Operatives are within 5% of Maras, was that in reference to PVP? It can't possibly be in reference to PVE due to DPS downtime and abilities not functioning (stealth). Is there a plan to address the significant PVE DPS loss of the Conc Nerf that was, to the best of our knowledge, entirely a PVP balance nerf?
subrosian
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Dee-Jay's Avatar


Dee-Jay
03.24.2012 , 05:42 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
In your interview you said Operatives are within 5% of Maras, was that in reference to PVP? It can't possibly be in reference to PVE due to DPS downtime and abilities not functioning (stealth). Is there a plan to address the significant PVE DPS loss of the Conc Nerf that was, to the best of our knowledge, entirely a PVP balance nerf?
Just wait for 1.2 and Combat Parsing to work reliably and you'll have your answer.

Tyrias's Avatar


Tyrias
03.24.2012 , 06:04 AM | #3
I know this isn't an answer to your question at all, but really, I just don't get why games insist on having stealth classes. They are "literally" impossible to balance across both PvE and PvP (As a lesser but still disappointing element, they also usually encourage ganking behaviour "Wait till they've aggroed a group of mobs" in open world PvP too).

If a class has stealth and needs to utilise it in PvP to match up to other classes, they will be at a distinct disadvantage in PvE content where Boss fights last 5+ minutes and you can only enter stealth when the cooldown on you Hide-in-plain-sight type skill is available.

If a class has stealth but does comparable damage to DPS classes in PvE, they become monsters in PvP, stealthing in on targets and destroying them because they always get the tactical advantage of first hit, as well as having comparable Damage output.

It's the same in other situations. CC classes also get a raw deal. You have more CC, you get less damage to compensate else you'd be overpowered in PvP. But because you have less damage, you're sub-par for boss fights, because they're pretty much all immune to any CC you can throw at them.

Same applies for classes that are superior at AoE and inferior at ST damage. I laugh at what's happening with Sages/Sorcs (because if I didn't, I'd cry). They are an "AoE dps and CC class". They already have poor single target burst because of their CC, and now they'll be losing their better AoE functionality (which, because their ST is SO poor, was also arguably the best ST damage too).

The only way I've seen it even attempted to be balance in other games it to have a stance that locks out one feature entirely (such as stealth) and buffs the damage output, intended to fix the PvE shortcomings.

But that's the best fix there is. When they "finally" get around to Dual/Multi-spec, having the option to go for a one DPS spec for PvE and a Stealth spec for PvP (in the case of stealth classes) is the only other thing I can think of to circumvent it. And that says it all... the fact that you have to "circumvent" a problem instead of being able to make it work.
"If you've got a problem, stick a worm in it".

Corran's Avatar


Corran
03.24.2012 , 10:14 AM | #4
it's not hard to balance at all. the mistake that developers often do is give stealth clases obscene burst.

they should have really good sustained damage instead of burst, with their opener being purely a non-damage stun.
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subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
03.24.2012 , 12:40 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Dee-Jay View Post
Just wait for 1.2 and Combat Parsing to work reliably and you'll have your answer.
I have an extensive analysis background, I already know for a fact that conc Operatives are 30% behind in DPS. I'm asking George to justify that without the worthless "well you can clear the content... right?"

Give Conc OPs a unique stacking debuff that only works in PVE that increases our DPS by 30%. It's obviously possible because taunts work differently in PVP than PVE. It is bug fixing as far as I'm concerned, since stealth does not work right in raids.
subrosian
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Achromatis's Avatar


Achromatis
03.24.2012 , 01:30 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
I have an extensive analysis background, I already know for a fact that conc Operatives are 30% behind in DPS. I'm asking George to justify that without the worthless "well you can clear the content... right?"

Give Conc OPs a unique stacking debuff that only works in PVE that increases our DPS by 30%. It's obviously possible because taunts work differently in PVP than PVE. It is bug fixing as far as I'm concerned, since stealth does not work right in raids.
Saying "I'm an expert" does not make you an expert, especially when youve yet to provide any data to backup your numbers. Lets have a look at that data you must have gotten this "30%" number from.
Not Meant to Be a Factual Statement

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Shadpwfox's Avatar


Shadpwfox
03.24.2012 , 01:50 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by subrosian View Post
I have an extensive analysis background, I already know for a fact that conc Operatives are 30% behind in DPS. I'm asking George to justify that without the worthless "well you can clear the content... right?"

Give Conc OPs a unique stacking debuff that only works in PVE that increases our DPS by 30%. It's obviously possible because taunts work differently in PVP than PVE. It is bug fixing as far as I'm concerned, since stealth does not work right in raids.
First off the guy above me is 100% correct claiming you're an expert does not make it true.

Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that
My worst fears are being buried alive or eaten by a shark.

Your life must be pretty good if yours only center around a video game.

subrosian's Avatar


subrosian
03.24.2012 , 03:42 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadpwfox View Post
First off the guy above me is 100% correct claiming you're an expert does not make it true.

Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that
My data comes from proprietary analysis software my group developed during our pro MTG years, it's not useable by anyone without a post-graduate mathematics background. We don't show our software to non-members, and we're all currently in retirement. If we do start up again, that may change.

And the coding absolutely does work that way. Taunt generates aggro in PVE. In PVP it provides a damage debuff. The game can flag abilities to not affect players already, it would be easy to make a debuff that did not affect players, so as to make our PVE damage higher without impacting PVP
subrosian
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Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.24.2012 , 03:45 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadpwfox View Post
Secondly if you were an expert you'd know that it's impossible for them to make a buff applicable only to PvE coding doesn't work like that
Ummm? Really?

Because we already have a flag that designates people as engaged in combat with another player. If the devs couldn't figure out how to make a buff, or even ability changes, based on whether a player was in PvE or PVP, then I don't think I want them developing an MMO.

Dee-Jay's Avatar


Dee-Jay
03.24.2012 , 04:57 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
Ummm? Really?

Because we already have a flag that designates people as engaged in combat with another player. If the devs couldn't figure out how to make a buff, or even ability changes, based on whether a player was in PvE or PVP, then I don't think I want them developing an MMO.
Having abilities work differently in PvP and PvE is a "last resort" solution and should be avoided wherever possible.

It's poor game-design.