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IA: Operative / Smuggler: Scoundel (dsp) - Will 1.2 ressurect this dead class?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
IA: Operative / Smuggler: Scoundel (dsp) - Will 1.2 ressurect this dead class?

Shroudveil's Avatar


Shroudveil
03.09.2012 , 02:34 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by EthanThristam View Post
Dev posts are rarely grounded in reality.

Now let's suppoose its a PvE boss, in which there are no mechanics that require movement for many of our specs. .....Maybe. But I'm still not seeing it. Up there? Sure. Best? No. Let's say its dirty fighting with all the mobility too? Still up there, but no.

The usual litmus test that's brought up is the Infernal Council on Nightmare. Now again, this is all personal observations, but I've never seen a Gunslinger finish an Infernal Marauder first. In fact they usually are near last of the DPS if they're all in equivalent gear. The reason why they might shine though are the encounters which don't require much movement and are melee unfriendly. On those? Sure, they might just beat out the odd Mercenary/Commando, but I rather doubt that.

In PvP there are rare occasions in which I've seen a gunslinger break 400k damage on games where they have 0 deaths(lol). But I've yet to see the 500, 600, 700k DPS that Sorcerors/Sages, Powertechs/Vanguards....et al. Can put out under similar circumstances.

Most would cite survivability in the latter, and indeed, survivability is our primary problem, but I qualified it by saying it was the rare 0 death, 100% uptime on DPS warzone, which does happen on occasion.

I'm not saying that the warzone boards are the best litmus test, given how DPS actually works, but its still a good qualifier. I'd like to challenge any of you to bring me a screenshot of a Gunslinger exceeding 500k, then ask that same Gunslinger how often it occurs.

Again, this is all pure observation without any objective data outside of combat logs, but I really doubt every Gunslinger I've interacted with, including myself, is just that bad. I don't see us as being 5% higher in DPS than every other DPS class, but I do see us within the top 3-4 DPS consistently.
pvp is an awful way to compare damages.

for starters most snipers are either markmanship or lethality, which are single target dps mainly, while most pts sorcs make use of plenty of aoe. so damage is ofc higher cuase of that.

secondly dps uptime is the main reason scoundrels/ops are behind the rest of the dps classes.

all the rest melee classes? no problem, they have charge, or sprint, or knockback immunity
ranged classes? lets no go over how ranged friendly are almost all the current bosses with the amount of target switching, movement, knockbacks and etc that there are apparently on all bosses.

dummy dps? who cares, dummy dps is purely theoritical and never applies in real situations.
Quote:
Georg Zoeller: A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.

LordbishopX's Avatar


LordbishopX
03.09.2012 , 03:33 PM | #22
I hit 200k as a level 11 smuggler grenade ftw. Damage in wz is purely how much AOE can you do and dots can you spread before you die. Then screen capture and brag on forums look at me....
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Powderhorn's Avatar


Powderhorn
03.09.2012 , 04:00 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by LordbishopX View Post
I hit 200k as a level 11 smuggler grenade ftw. Damage in wz is purely how much AOE can you do and dots can you spread before you die. Then screen capture and brag on forums look at me....
Quoted for truth.
Westley, 50 Scoundrel, Deadweight Server
Tech users, rise up against the force-user oppression!

Manigma's Avatar


Manigma
03.09.2012 , 04:11 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by LordbishopX View Post
Its star wars and if you look at the most popular characters in the lore Darth Maul and the rest of the light saber wielding classes are the most popular. It just goes to show it follows suit here. What star wars game that are successful that peeps don't play a light saber using bad ***. How many han solo games have peeps made lol.
Okay and what about Warhammer Online, Bright Wizards were the most popular class, there is no Warhammer film and not many people play the tabletop. Let's not forget that Bright Wizards didn't even look that great (red haired guys in dresses) it is exactly the same situation with Sages and Sorcerors people levitate to the best class and that's why they are overplayed not because the stupid reason Bioware gave that it's who they associate with most in the films.

LordbishopX's Avatar


LordbishopX
03.09.2012 , 04:23 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Manigma View Post
Okay and what about Warhammer Online, Bright Wizards were the most popular class, there is no Warhammer film and not many people play the tabletop. Let's not forget that Bright Wizards didn't even look that great (red haired guys in dresses) it is exactly the same situation with Sages and Sorcerors people levitate to the best class and that's why they are overplayed not because the stupid reason Bioware gave that it's who they associate with most in the films.
Nope not really even close to decent comparison peeps grew up on star wars and jedi's not warhammers a game I have never even thought of playing. Some players that can't handle learning how to play the class rage quit while others L2P it quite well. I see many top charts damage and killls and very very few deaths. When I see them I attempt to avoid being alone cause I know they will get me out of no where lol. Also 2 together can be tag team from hell...

Smuggers and IA have the best stories in my book that's why I play them to fight back. The issue is the class takes more than button spamming and sitting in cover and really just has some bad bad players that play it and QQ none stop it seems...

Sorc are really easy to take down OP nope big damage yeah easy dot dot dot aoe look at my damage and when I pop on them they die quickly not tough at all.
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Coldin's Avatar


Coldin
03.09.2012 , 05:10 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by LordbishopX View Post
Nope not really even close to decent comparison peeps grew up on star wars and jedi's not warhammers a game I have never even thought of playing. Some players that can't handle learning how to play the class rage quit while others L2P it quite well. I see many top charts damage and killls and very very few deaths. When I see them I attempt to avoid being alone cause I know they will get me out of no where lol. Also 2 together can be tag team from hell...

Smuggers and IA have the best stories in my book that's why I play them to fight back. The issue is the class takes more than button spamming and sitting in cover and really just has some bad bad players that play it and QQ none stop it seems...

Sorc are really easy to take down OP nope big damage yeah easy dot dot dot aoe look at my damage and when I pop on them they die quickly not tough at all.

*rolls eyes* I do wish I could inspect players, and find out what classes they're playing and what level.

But judging by your posting history, all you're doing is saying how easy it is for Operative/Scoundrel to kill sorcs. Which frankly, is just not true in the current state of the game.

CaptainInsano's Avatar


CaptainInsano
03.09.2012 , 06:10 PM | #27
Among the issues with Operatives in PvP, their energy system might make it so the class can never be viable. To achieve burst similar to the other classes, you have to spam energy attacks because Rifle Shot is so weak. The problem is you'll run out of resources after about 20 seconds and then you're useless and have to recover. In big group matches with lots of heals and tanks flying around, Operatives are going to be useless as the fights drag on. I can see this class operating on the fringes and ganking people dumb enough to run around solo, but that's about it. Not many people are going to want that in their groups when they could just take another Marauder or Assassin.

Baalzamon's Avatar


Baalzamon
03.09.2012 , 08:37 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
Among the issues with Operatives in PvP, their energy system might make it so the class can never be viable. To achieve burst similar to the other classes, you have to spam energy attacks because Rifle Shot is so weak. The problem is you'll run out of resources after about 20 seconds and then you're useless and have to recover. In big group matches with lots of heals and tanks flying around, Operatives are going to be useless as the fights drag on. I can see this class operating on the fringes and ganking people dumb enough to run around solo, but that's about it. Not many people are going to want that in their groups when they could just take another Marauder or Assassin.
Agree the smuggler/Agent energy regen is terrible.

Wrathoran's Avatar


Wrathoran
03.09.2012 , 09:27 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
*rolls eyes* I do wish I could inspect players, and find out what classes they're playing and what level.

But judging by your posting history, all you're doing is saying how easy it is for Operative/Scoundrel to kill sorcs. Which frankly, is just not true in the current state of the game.
i do agree with that. I got 50 last week with my smugglers and now got some champ, bm , cent gear on. When i started my first WZ , 2 cent pieces and an orange gun on the market ... forget it, no way i could kill a healer even burning everything i got at the good moment. Kick , flash , drop in stealth and re-open , use the energy recovery etc. Nothing to do , they outlive you.

From 1 to 36 = i suxed
From 36 to 39 = Shoot First yay! i put more pressure!
From 40 to 49 = Flechette loaded and ready to own. I was racking the kill count. Almost immortal in every game
50 non geared = Horrible!! some people 2 shot me, i got a hard time escaping fight, healers are gods amongst men. I still do some invincible sometime and go from 0 to 2 death mostly but i need to be damn careful. I can max the damage meter (sometime) running around 250k to 290k but my killing blow suck so bad. I got a HUGE problem finishing up people.

50 more geared = Its ok ... Having played a Jugg veng/immo hybrid , pyro powertech , vanguard ironfist , assassin i still feel like im doing less good. Lemme explain...

My dps is all about a 10sec burst when dropping out of stealth. If the fight drags on then its geting more complicated , have to use the def cooldown. If there is backup , then i need to run away. With most of the other classes i can deal with 2 players without too much problem. Assassins seem to have an equal or even better opening burst then us and a better sustained with more survivability. People will say "but you can heal!"... have you tried it in WZ? when someone run after you? Trying to play hide and seek to get some health back, you lose soooo much time and sometime you die from it.

I just feel quite unuseful ... i feel like the d*ck that do 1v1 in his corner while his team play the game when i play my smuggler. I cant carry the ball , i cant stay near the door in voidstar and i can hold or capture a turret but if 1-2 defender come by , i have to plan ahead quite well or call backup. I just dont feel as efficient as my powertech or my jugg.

I do feel too that assassin and sorcerer got everything for themselves. I know grass look always greener but they can rush, bubble (sage only), push away , pull , attack 30m (with the cd) , CC , tank , stealth etc. I feel like im lacking tool

Wallach's Avatar


Wallach
03.09.2012 , 09:57 PM | #30
I don't see 1.2 bringing these ACs up to par. It's going to require a more significant design overhaul to accomplish that, and this patch is working in broader strokes (for good reason).