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Theoretical Class Balancing

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Theoretical Class Balancing

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.07.2012 , 02:23 PM | #11
You're absolutely right, I wouldn't suggest they throw a buffed shock into the game at the moment as it would completely throw everything out of whack.

However to make balancing skill trees simplistic and accurate as well as fair, it's optimal to start with an equivalent base and work your way up from there. If all skills are equal at the start, all upgrades can be equivalent.

Shroudveil's Avatar


Shroudveil
03.07.2012 , 07:08 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Toxification View Post
You're absolutely right, I wouldn't suggest they throw a buffed shock into the game at the moment as it would completely throw everything out of whack.

However to make balancing skill trees simplistic and accurate as well as fair, it's optimal to start with an equivalent base and work your way up from there. If all skills are equal at the start, all upgrades can be equivalent.
yeah but how do you balance utility non-direct spells/talents.

i mean take shock p.e. since you mentioned it, you remove the double proc, you remove the healing and etc so as to have a clean state when building the talent tree from the start.

now assume you think the class needs a CC or a gap closer. how much % do you value that?

talking about theoritical values is nice and all, but for this to happen you need to know the internal values that the devs want for their games:

p.e. they might think that a hard CC is equal to 2k damage, you might think it is equal to 3k damage. without knowing what they think you can't balance cause in the end, it is all just an OPINION: theirs vs yours.
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Georg Zoeller: A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed.

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.07.2012 , 07:44 PM | #13
Meh I can get a general idea as to the damage they want for utility skills by looking at the damage of current utility skills in the game. That's what I base them upon, but I haven't even gotten around to working on utility skills yet.

Additionally you have to realize that all this is simply my opinion generally. However I can't help but look at so many of the the skill trees and the damage values of skills and notice that they are completely wrong.

Bioware made balancing classes very difficult for themselves. They used an additive template instead of a multiplicative template and didn't use constant values for absolute upgrades in the skill trees.

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Toxification
03.21.2012 , 04:54 PM | #14
Update to the operative

Any constructive feedback is welcome =)

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.25.2012 , 11:20 AM | #15
Alrighty Sorcerer/Sage and Shadow/Assassin should now be dealing exactly the same damage before any talents in the trees. Which will be modified as soon as I get my java program functioning well. This is excluding rotation conflicts however.

So all the assassin and sorcerer class trees will deal exactly the same damage over an extended period of time.

Working on getting operative to the desired threshold.

Boo yah

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.31.2012 , 01:39 PM | #16
FINALLY done my java program, good riddance.

Here's my code, if you understand java clicky.
Spoiler


Now the only thing that really needs work is the rotation and priorities.

Currently it's
Discharge if force greater than or equal to 25 and off-cooldown
Shock if force is greater than 35 and shock's off cooldown
Maul if force is greater than 35 and maul's off-cooldown
Dark slash if force is less than 70 and dark slash is off cooldown
Then spike if dark slash has been used.
Thrash if force is greater than 35.

My only issue at the moment would have to be with the logic and rotation parameters.

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.31.2012 , 02:57 PM | #17
looking through the post at the top...just a small point....abilities already have something like your "multiplier" included.

you never addressed why this "multiplier" was needed. You said something was "terrible"...but never explain what it is. I'm guessing it's that you think that all abilities receive the same benefit from gear, therefore an ability that only deals 100 base damage receives more benefit than an ability that does 1000 base damage. This is not the case.

in it's simplest terms, the damage an ability does is determined by: base damage + coefficient*bonus damage (of course there are also talents, other abilities that affect damage, the targets damage resistances, etc)

the coefficient is based on what type of ability it is, it's cooldown, it's cast time, AoE vs single target, etc... so there's no reason to completely redo how abilities work.

The ability that deals 100 base damage might have a coefficient of only 0.1, meaning that if you had 1000 bonus damage the ability would only deal 200 damage. On the other hand the ability that deals 1000 base damage might have a coefficient of 1.0, meaning that with 1000 bonus damage the ability would deal 2000 damage....so with 1000 bonus damage both abilities will deal double base damage.

Some coefficients are very large (for example, tank abilities typically have very large coefficients to make up for tank gear having lower DPS stats), and some coefficients are very small.
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Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.31.2012 , 04:21 PM | #18
The issue with the current system is that when comparing say shock or project to saber strike the benefits from equipment and leveling scale at a completely different rate.

If saber strike deals 500 damage and shock deals 3000 in the current system, then you upgrade your equipment and the new damage values are 1500 and 4500. The ratio has gone from 1:6 to 1:3 and it's completely broken, there's no real reason that something like this should be occuring as all it'll do is offbalance the game for you depending on how good your equipment is. A rather extreme example and no skills in game are exactly like this, but a great example is to examine marauder/sentinel skills at the top of the tree at a low level, then go in a PvP match where you recieve the buff. The skills go from being amazing and overpowered to being weaker than some of your current skills. Massacre's a good example.

So there has to be a set amount of base damage, say 50 on all skills that gets added with the bonus damage from equipment, be it 400 or something like that, then the multiplier gets applied, what the multiplier is completely depends on the skill.

So it would look something like
500 damage on saber strike and 1500 on shock, then after the gear upgrade it's 1000 on saber strike and 3000 on shock. No skill has become more or less valuable simply more valuable as a whole. It simply means that there's a less confusing system for the community, the developers and it's constantly balanced assuming they don't do anything screwy with gear ratings.

Toxification's Avatar


Toxification
03.31.2012 , 05:11 PM | #19
Here are the current readings for deception assassin
Combat log:
Thrash = 1006.5 damage, Uses: 159
Total Percentage of Damage: 13.9%

Shock = 1331.0 damage, Uses: 249
Total Percentage of Damage: 28.7%

Force Lightning = 1732.5 damage, Uses: 0
Total Percentage of Damage: 0.0%

Maul = 1468.5 damage, Uses: 125
Total Percentage of Damage: 15.9%

Discharge = 1507 damage, Uses: 125
Total Percentage of Damage: 16.3%

Crushing Darkness = 1694.0 damage, Uses: 0
Total Percentage of Damage: 0.0%

Spike = 1254.0 damage, Uses: 94
Total Percentage of Damage: 10.2%

Saber Strike = 550.0 damage, Uses: 154
Total Percentage of Damage: 7.3%

Dark Slash = 1045.0 damage, Uses: 94
Total Percentage of Damage: 8.5%

Over the course of a thousand turns

Thereby tier 1 of deception:
Thrashing Blades- Increases the damage dealt by thrash/voltaic slash by 5.4%..10.8%, 2 points.
Assassins Boon/Shadows Insight- Increases your willpower by 3...9% 3 points
Insulation- No changes from current, till I come up with something creative.

Tier 2:
Recirculation: No change
Objuscation: Being replaced
Avoidance: No need for changes

Tier 3:
Surging charge: Guaranteed chance to trigger on attacks. Multiplier of 15%. Will have it's damage spread out if the skill is a multi-hit.
Induction: Thrash/Voltaic slash has a 50...100% chance to make your next discharge free
Deceptive Power: No change from current, maybe add in an additional passive affect.
Dark Swell: Not sure what's going to replace this yet.

Tier 4:
Fade: Reduces the cooldown of force cloak by 30 seconds and increases your movement speed by 15...30% for 3 seconds when you activate dark slash
Duplicity: While surging charge is active maul deals 10...20% more damage
Dark Slash: Deals 190% damage, 15 second cooldown and grants 4 seconds of stealth.
Static Cling: Decreases the cooldown of force slow and increases it's duration by 1.5...3 seconds and force speed grants 3...6 seconds of slow on shadowstep.

Tier 5:
Resourcefulness: Not sure what to do with this yet, but it's got to go. I'm thinking it might be a good one to change into some form of heal mechanic
Static Charges: Your surging charge hits increase the damage dealt by shock by 3...6% stacks 5 times. Cannot be triggered more than once a GCD.
Crackling Blasts: Increases the critical damage of surging charge and shock by 10...30%. 3 Points.

Tier 6:
Dark Embrace: While in stealth mode and for 6 seconds after leaving stealth mode your force regeneration is increased by 25...75%. 3 Point skill. Requires Dark Slash.
System Shock: Derp?

Tier 7:
Voltaic Slash: Base multiplier of 210% before other talents. Using this skill increases the damage of your next discharge by 30%.

Veriu's Avatar


Veriu
03.31.2012 , 09:12 PM | #20
1) You apparently don't understand what the coefficient is, please re-read what I wrote. The coefficient does exactly what your multiplier does (and more).

2) Please go read some posts on sithwarrior.com, or do a search for theorycrafting...as you don't seem to understand how this game works and are making many faulty assumptions.

3) You need to get a little higher level before making these posts...as they don't make any sense. For example, you say that there should be an ability with a long cooldown to allow you to re-enter stealth in combat. That ability exists, you gain it in the mid 20s for both assassin & operative. (hmm...did you edit that comment out of your posts because you realized it was dumb?)

Another example: When you reach lvl 50, you will find out that there is no "pvp buff" and that your skills will do the same in a warzone as they do anywhere else (assuming you have zero expertise). Arguing about balance in a warzone pre-50 is silly, pvp pre-lvl cap is never balanced in any MMO...and most games fail at balance even at level cap as well.

Yet another example: You are talking about the damage of shock. Were you unaware of the skill Assassin's training? It is a passive skill with a few different ranks, each rank increases the damage of shock by 25%. You get the first rank at lvl 10, the second rank I think in the high teens, the third in the mid 20s, and idk about the rest as my shadow character is still in her 20s, and torhead doesn't list all of the skills ranks :/

In other words, Shock becomes more and more a major part of your damage the higher lvl you get. And that was something the dev's designed into the game. It is not broken.

4) Lastly...why is everything in your posts in spoiler tags? that's just annoying. Spoiler tags are for, spoilers. If you don't know what a spoiler is: Your ideas on the usefulness of stealth is not a spoiler it is an opinion, on the other hand the plot of the Sith Warrior class story is a spoiler.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Ivy league educated research scientist working on solar cell development. So yeah, I have no need to feel "accomplished" in a videogame.
Quote: Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Call me when you've got 2 written recommendations from Nobel laureates and have attended annual private functions at the White House.